An Attempt At Card Balance With Emphasis On HP

[Ajit]

OK so... I believe the game would benefit from valuing hp more than it currently does as far as card cost theory.

So I did the calculations, mostly sticking to the current well-established theory except for the HP.  The idea is that if HP becomes more valuable, CC will too.  Currently a Lightning card can take away 5 hp for 2 quanta.  With the current balance that's fine, but leaves little room for other weaker CC.  Looking at Thunderbolt, it takes away 5 hp for 1 quanta.  This leaves no room for CC variation.  What would an upped CC card that does 3 damage cost? 0 quanta?  What about 1 damage? -1 quanta?  These numbers seem absurd of course.  So to open the game up a bit, I've changed up costs a bit.

EDIT
also, of course, after adjusting all of these costs slightly, we would assume that many spells, permanents, and creature abilities would need to be adjusted as well

This is just for fun, speculation, and maybe eventually a better thought-out cost theory.

Creature Value = Attack + Skill Value + HP/2 (round down) (if hp = 0 then - 3) + Elemental Bonus
Upped Creature Value = (same) - 2 quanta

Aether
Spark 3(atk) - 3(0hp) = 0
Immortal 4(atk) + 1(3hp) + 1(immaterial) = 6
Phase Dragon 8(atk) + 3(6hp) + 1(immaterial) = 12
Phase Spider 4(atk) + 1(2hp) - 1(off-ability) = 4


Air (all totals are - 1)
Dragonfly 1(atk) + 0(1hp) + 1(generate quanta) = 1
Wyrm +3(atk) + 1(3hp) + 2(dive) = 5
Azure Dragon + 9(atk) + 3(6hp) = 11
Firefly Queen + 3(atk) + 3(7hp) -2(off-ability) + 4(generate creature) = 7
Firefly +3(atk) + 1(2hp) + 1(generate quanta) = 4

Darkness
Black Dragon 10(atk) + 2(5hp) = 12
Devourer 0(atk) + 1(2hp) + 1(devour) + 1(burrow) -1(off-ability) = 2
Parasite 1(atk) + 0(1hp) + 1(infection) - 1(off-ability) = 1
Minor Vampire 2(atk) + 1(2hp) + 1(vampire) = 4
Gargoyle 5(atk) + 1(3hp) + 1(stone form) - 1(off-ability) = 6

Death
Bone Dragon 10(atk) + 2(5hp) = 12
Virus 1(atk) + 0(1hp) + 1(infect) - 1(sacrifice) = 1
Flesh Spider 3(atk) + 1(3hp) - 1(off-ability) = 4
Vulture 0(atk) + 0(1hp) + 3(scavenger) = 3
Skeleton 1(atk) + 0(1hp) = 1
Mummy 5(atk) + 1(3hp) - 1(off-ability) = 5
Deathstalker 0(atk) + 0(1hp) + 4(deadly venom) - 1(off-ability) = 3


Earth (hp/4, round down)
Antlion 2(atk) + 0(3hp) + 1(burrow) = 3
Hematite Golem 4(atk) + 1(6hp) = 5
Stone Dragon 8(atk) + 2(10hp) = 10
Gnome Rider 1(atk) + 0(2hp) + 1(generate quanta) = 2
Graboid 2(atk) + 0(3hp) + 3(evolve) - 1(off-ability) = 4
Shrieker 8(atk) + 0(3hp) + 1(burrow) = 9

Entropy
Maxwell's Demon 3(atk) + 1(2hp) + 2(paradox) = 6
Abomination 5(atk) + 2(5hp) = 7
Purple Dragon 10(atk) + 2(5hp) = 12
Lycanthrope 1(atk) + 0(1hp) + 3(lycanthropy) - 2(off-ability) = 2
Fallen Elf 3(atk) + 1(2hp) + 1(mutation) - 1(off-ability) = 4
Schrödinger’s Cat 1(atk) + 0(1hp) + 1(dead and alive) = 2

Fire (all totals are -1)
Ash Eater 2(atk) + 0(1hp) = 1
Crimson Dragon 12(atk) + 1(3hp) = 12
Fire Spirit 0(atk) + 1(2hp) + 2(ablaze) = 2
Lava Golem 5(atk) + 0(1hp) + 3(growth) - 1(off-ability) = 6
Phoenix 7(atk) + 0(1hp) + 1(ash) = 7
Ash 0(atk) + 3(7hp) + 4(rebirth) = 6

Gravity (hp/5, round down)
Sapphire Charger 4(atk) + 1(5hp) + 1(momentum) = 6
Armagio 1(atk) + 5(25hp) + 1(gravity pull) - 1(sacrifice) = 6
Graviton Mercenary 3(atk) + 1(5hp) = 4
Colossal Dragon 7(atk) + 3(15hp) = 10
Otyugh 0(atk) + 0(3hp) + 4(devour) = 4
Graviton Fire Eater 0(atk) + 1(hp) + 2(ablaze) - 1(off-ability) = 2

Life (all totals are -1)
Emerald Dragon 10(atk) + 3(6hp) = 12
Horned Frog 3(atk) + 1(3hp) = 3
Rustler 1(atk) + 0(1hp) + 2(generate quanta) - 1(off-ability) = 1
Cockatrice 4(atk) + 2(4hp) = 5
Forest Spirit 1(atk) + 0(1hp) + 3(growth) - 1(off-ability) = 2
Forest Scorpion 1(atk) + 1(2hp) + 3(venom) = 4

Light (all totals are -1)
Photon 1(atk) + 0(1hp) = 0
Golden Dragon 10 + 5(10hp) = 14
Pegasus 3(atk) + 1(2hp) + 2(dive) - 1(off-ability) = 4
Guardian Angel 1(atk) + 3(6hp) + 1(heal) = 4
Crusader 2(atk) + 2(4hp) + 2(endow) = 5

Time
Deja Vu 1(atk) + 0(hp) = 1
Fate Egg 0(atk) + 0(1hp) + 3(hatch) = 3
Devonian Dragon 10(atk) + 2(5hp) = 12
Anubis 5(atk) + 4(8hp) + 2(immortality) - 2(off-ability) = 9
Scarab 2(atk) + 0(Nhp) + 2(devour) - 1(off-ability) = 3
Pharaoh 3(atk) + 4(8hp) + 3(generate creature) = 10
Dune Scorpion 0(atk) + 0(1hp) + 3(neurotoxin) = 3

Water
Chrysaora 0(atk) + 1(2hp) + 1(poison) - 1(off-ability) = 1
Blue Crawler 3(atk) + 1(3hp) = 4
Ice Dragon 9(atk) + 3(6hp) = 12
Toadfish 6(atk) + 2(4hp) + 1(inflate) - 1(off-ability) = 8
Mind Flayer 2(atk) + 1(2hp) + 1(psionic wave) - 1(off-ability) = 3
Steam Machine 0(atk) + 3(6hp) + 3(steam) - 2(off-ability) = 4
Arctic Squid 1(atk) + 1(2hp) + 2(freeze) = 4

[QuantumT]

The other option to reduce a card's cost is to remove the cost of the card slot itself. For example, make a card that does 3 damage for 3 quanta, but you draw a card when you play it. Most people don't seem to like the idea of card draw outside time, but I think it's something worth exploring.

[OldTrees]

Yes! Now the discussion can begin. [+1 karma for OP]

OK so... I believe the game would benefit from valuing hp more than it currently does as far as card cost theory.

I agree.

So I did the calculations, mostly sticking to the current well-established theory except for the HP.  The idea is that if HP becomes more valuable, CC will too.  Currently a Lightning card can take away 5 hp for 2 quanta.  With the current balance that's fine, but leaves little room for other weaker CC.  Looking at Thunderbolt, it takes away 5 hp for 1 quanta.  This leaves no room for CC variation.  What would an upped CC card that does 3 damage cost? 0 quanta?  What about 1 damage? -1 quanta?  These numbers seem absurd of course.  So to open the game up a bit, I've changed up costs a bit.

Currently Lightning costs 2 +1draw, that is 4 +/-1 value to play around with.

Aether
Phase Dragon 8(atk) + 3(6hp) + 1(immaterial) = 12 =/= 13
Phase Spider 4(atk) + 1(2hp) - 1(off-ability) = 4 =/= 3

Air (all totals are - 1)
Wyrm +3(atk) + 1(3hp) + 2(dive) = 5 =/=4 (easily explained by reevaluating dive though. Dive is worth more on Pegasus duo to mono access to blessing)
Azure Dragon + 9(atk) + 3(6hp) = 11 =/= 10
Firefly +3(atk) + 1(2hp) + 1(generate quanta) = 4 =/= 3 (generating off element quanta is less valuable I would think.)

Darkness
Black Dragon 10(atk) + 2(5hp) = 12 =/= 10
Minor Vampire 2(atk) + 1(2hp) + 1(vampire) = 4 =/= 3
Gargoyle 5(atk) + 1(3hp) + 1(stone form) - 1(off-ability) = 6 =/= 5

Death
Bone Dragon 10(atk) + 2(5hp) = 12 =/= 10
Flesh Spider 3(atk) + 1(3hp) - 1(off-ability) = 4 =/= 3
Mummy 5(atk) + 1(3hp) - 1(off-ability) = 5 =/= 4

Earth (hp/4, round down)
Antlion 2(atk) + 0(3hp) + 1(burrow) = 3 =/=2
Hematite Golem 4(atk) + 1(6hp) = 5 =/=4
Gnome Rider 1(atk) + 0(2hp) + 1(generate quanta) = 2 =/=1
Graboid 2(atk) + 0(3hp) + 3(evolve) - 1(off-ability) = 4 =/= 3
Shrieker 8(atk) + 0(3hp) + 1(burrow) = 9 =/= 8

Entropy
Maxwell's Demon 3(atk) + 1(2hp) + 2(paradox) = 6 =/=5
Abomination 5(atk) + 2(5hp) = 7 =/=5
Purple Dragon 10(atk) + 2(5hp) = 12 =/=10
Schrödinger’s Cat 1(atk) + 0(1hp) + 1(dead and alive) = 2 =/=1

Fire (all totals are -1)
Lava Golem 5(atk) + 0(1hp) + 3(growth) - 1(off-ability) = 6
Ash 0(atk) + 3(7hp) + 4(rebirth) = 6 =/=7 (casting cost of token cards takes forever to measure balance in game)

Gravity (hp/5, round down)
Sapphire Charger 4(atk) + 1(5hp) + 1(momentum) = 6 =/=5
Armagio 1(atk) + 5(25hp) + 1(gravity pull) - 1(sacrifice) = 6 =/=5

Life (all totals are -1)
Emerald Dragon 10(atk) + 3(6hp) = 12 =/=10
Horned Frog 3(atk) + 1(3hp) = 3 =/=2
Cockatrice 4(atk) + 2(4hp) = 5 =/=3

Light (all totals are -1)
Golden Dragon 10 + 5(10hp) = 14 =/=12
Guardian Angel 1(atk) + 3(6hp) + 1(heal) = 4 =/=3

Time
Devonian Dragon 10(atk) + 2(5hp) = 12 =/=10
Anubis 5(atk) + 4(8hp) + 2(immortality) - 2(off-ability) = 9 =/=8
Scarab 2(atk) + 0(Nhp) + 2(devour) - 1(off-ability) = 3 =/=3
Pharaoh 3(atk) + 4(8hp) + 3(generate creature) = 10 =/=9

Water
Blue Crawler 3(atk) + 1(3hp) = 4 =/=3
Ice Dragon 9(atk) + 3(6hp) = 12 =/=10
Toadfish 6(atk) + 2(4hp) + 1(inflate) - 1(off-ability) = 8 =/=5
Mind Flayer 2(atk) + 1(2hp) + 1(psionic wave) - 1(off-ability) = 3 =/=2
Arctic Squid 1(atk) + 1(2hp) + 2(freeze) = 4 =/=3

Creature Value = Attack + Skill Value + HP/2 (round down) (if hp = 0 then - 3) + Elemental Bonus
Upped Creature Value = (same) - 2 quanta


+ 1(immaterial)
- 1(off-ability)
Air (all totals are - 1)
+ 1(generate quanta)
+ 2(dive)
+ 3(generate creature)
+ 1(drain quanta)
+ 1(burrow)
+ 1(infection)
+ 1(vampire)
+ 1(stone form)
 - 1(sacrifice)
+ 3(scavenger)
+ 0(undead)
+ 0(mummy)
+ 2(deadly venom)
Earth (hp/4, round down)
+ 3(evolve)
+ 2(paradox)
+ 2(lycanthropy)
+ 1(mutation)
+ 1(dead and alive)
Fire (all totals are -1)
+ 2(ablaze)
+ 3(growth)
+ 1(ash)
+ 4(rebirth)
Gravity (hp/5, round down)
+ 1(momentum)
+ 1(gravity pull)
+ 4(devour)
Life (all totals are -1)
+ 1(off element photosynthesize)
+ 2(venom)
Light (all totals are -1)
+ 1(heal)
+ 2(endow)
+ 0(deja Vu)
+ 3(hatch)
+ 2(immortality)
- 2(off-ability)
+ 0(Nhp)
+ 2(devour)
+ 3(neurotoxin)
+ 1(poison)
+ 1(inflate)
+ 1(psionic wave)
+ 3(steam)
+ 2(freeze)

Off ability is -1 except on Anubis where it is -2?
Venom and Deadly venom are both +2?
Why are all the skill values constant? (except off ability)
Where are the upgraded?

I think that is sufficient for a opening response to flesh out the idea before discussion.

[Ajit]

thanks OldTrees I knew I could rely on you for analysis.  +1 Karma.

So
; Off-ability
I decided that the reduction in price due to off-ability should subtract however many quanta the spell costs.  So Immortality - 2 because the spell costs 2 quanta of an off-ability.  I realized now that I had discrepancies (Firefly Queen, Lycanthrope) and have am about to fix those mistakes in the pattern.

; Venom/Deadly Venom
I've amended these two.  Venom is worth +2, +1 if atk =/= 0.  Deadly Venom is worth +4, +1 if atk =/= 0.

Why are all the skill values constant? (except off ability)

I don't understand what you mean \_()_/

Where are the upgraded?

I'll get to those eventually, but I imagine it will mostly be the exact same thing - 2 quanta.

The other option to reduce a card's cost is to remove the cost of the card slot itself. For example, make a card that does 3 damage for 3 quanta, but you draw a card when you play it. Most people don't seem to like the idea of card draw outside time, but I think it's something worth exploring.

I don't quite get was you're saying QT..

[QuantumT]

Basically, a card has 2 costs. One is the obvious cost of the quanta required to play it, the other is that it takes up a space in your deck. If you make it so that part of the effect of the card is to draw another one (like precog), you remove the cost of the slot from the card's cost.

[OldTrees]

My next question is:
Is this intended to be a constructive or derivative design theory?
A constructive theory uses the rules of the game but deduces the formula from conceptual ideas.
A derivative theory assumes that the game is balanced or nigh balanced and tries to describe/derive the balance inherent in the system.

Both are valid and valuable methods for design theory.

[Ajit]

Basically, a card has 2 costs. One is the obvious cost of the quanta required to play it, the other is that it takes up a space in your deck. If you make it so that part of the effect of the card is to draw another one (like precog), you remove the cost of the slot from the card's cost.

Oh got ya, yes that would be a unique way of looking at card costs.  Worthy enough to make an entire card game around, it would be a way to make the game different from other tcg's.

My next question is:
Is this intended to be a constructive or derivative design theory?
A constructive theory uses the rules of the game but deduces the formula from conceptual ideas.
A derivative theory assumes that the game is balanced or nigh balanced and tries to describe/derive the balance inherent in the system.

Both are valid and valuable methods for design theory.

I believe more of a constructive theory if I understand the terminology.  Its just a different approach to what I believe the costs of the cards should be.  The main idea behind this all is that if you increase the value of cards, it leaves room for more cards with slightly different costs.  Currently in this game's cost theory, 1 quanta is the value for so many things with little wiggle room.  If costs were increased, some abilities, etc. could be adjusted cost wise, opening new room for weaker and stronger abilities with appropriate costs.

[OldTrees]

Basically, a card has 2 costs. One is the obvious cost of the quanta required to play it, the other is that it takes up a space in your deck. If you make it so that part of the effect of the card is to draw another one (like precog), you remove the cost of the slot from the card's cost.

Oh got ya, yes that would be a unique way of looking at card costs.  Worthy enough to make an entire card game around, it would be a way to make the game different from other tcg's.

My next question is:
Is this intended to be a constructive or derivative design theory?
A constructive theory uses the rules of the game but deduces the formula from conceptual ideas.
A derivative theory assumes that the game is balanced or nigh balanced and tries to describe/derive the balance inherent in the system.

Both are valid and valuable methods for design theory.

I believe more of a constructive theory if I understand the terminology.  Its just a different approach to what I believe the costs of the cards should be.  The main idea behind this all is that if you increase the value of cards, it leaves room for more cards with slightly different costs.  Currently in this game's cost theory, 1 quanta is the value for so many things with little wiggle room.  If costs were increased, some abilities, etc. could be adjusted cost wise, opening new room for weaker and stronger abilities with appropriate costs.

You keep sending mixed messages.

The "public" version of the Current theory does not explicitly state the cost of a draw(lightning) vs a cantrip(precognition). Also when an effect gets too weak it can be turned into a "wand" (reusable effect). If all you sought was wiggle room then you just needed to be informed on where it was.

However wiggle room has its problems:
Speed [Very slow cards are not worth including because they never see play]
Deck Slot [Very weak cards are not worth including in decks because they mess with probabilities and delay good cards]
SoR [prevents the size of large activation costs from mattering between 6 and 10]
Twin Universe [creatures cannot be too valuable]