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Offline ZephyrPhantomTopic starter

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A Blademaster's Journal : The Current Limits of Card Making https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20920.msg266742#msg266742
« on: February 08, 2011, 02:31:12 am »
*sigh* seeing as what happened to the Duality series, I've decided to compile a list of things that card makers probably want to avoid as well as how to get around them without ruining your masterpiece of a card.

Special Thanks to:
 :time Zanz for making ETG.
 :light Emeraldtiger, Oldtrees, and Kael Hate for the debate that inspired this thread.
 :life Scaredgirl, Kuraitou, Emeraldtiger, Phantomfox, and Oldtrees for just making/helping out with those awesome guides.
 :water And finally Essence for what I consider this thread's predecessor, Unwritten Rules (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,5508.0.html)

A breakdown of each section:
What you generally want to avoid: Generally what you don't want to do.  Could it happen in the future? Yes. Right now though, it seems like something that won't happen.
But Why? You'll find a legimate explanation here.
How to get around it Potential resolutions that won't ruin your card.
But Wait! A section where you'll find some special cases and arguments. You'll find two special guests joining me for this section -
Sonic the Hedgehog (Sonic the Hedgehog/Sega)
Rin Kagamine (Vocaloid/Crypton)
The People's Response A pro-discussion section where the three of us look at viewer suggestions and discuss how effective they are.


Alright, now that all the introductions are done with, let's get to design.

What you generally want to avoid:
Try to avoid making a card cost X (or any variable cost) or have it cost multiple quantas (For example, a "Phase Graboid" that costs 2  :aether and 2  :earth )
But Why?
It doesn't work with how quanta is drained with cards. When a card is played, a preset value must be present (therefore no X), and it can only choose between draining of 1 quanta or undefined quanta (aka Other).
How to get around it
If you're trying to make a multi-element card, try:
-Having the card drain quanta from a different element. This is the simplest way to force a duo.
-Give the card an ability that costs a different element. This is probably the best and most recommended method.
-Have the card do something that requires a concept from a different element. Shockwave is the perfect example of this. It can instakill a creature or shatter your weapon, but only if it's frozen. What reliably freezes things? Water. Bam, duo right there.
-Have the card generate quanta from a different element, like Rustler.
If you're trying to make a variable card, try:
-Make the creature's stats variable.
-Make the ability of the creature variable.
For example:
Quote
Name: Hunter
Cost: X  :life
Stats: 10 | 10
X is 10 - # number of Frogs on the field.
to
Quote
Name: Hunter
Cost: 5  :life
Stats: X | X
X is the # of Frogs on the field + 2
As you can see, the card still relies on Frogs like it's supposed to, but it's not completley changed or anything so that the card is overhauled.
But Wait!
Yo Z! Haven't you considered what Patchx said about making a card drain several pools of quanta when instantly played? Like:
Quote
Name: Phase Graboid
Cost: 3 :earth
Stats: 1 | 1
Drains 2 :aether when played.
:time : Evolve - Evolve into a Shrieker.  That Shrieker has immaterial.
I would discourage that because you would either be able to play the creature only in duo (all cards should be playable in a mono, just not usuable to the best possible ability) by forcing death or disabling playing it.
Well, you could make it come out and drain from a zero quanta pool, but it wouldn't make sense and it would become abused (overall superiority to other cards). Try this instead:
Quote
Name: Phase Graboid
Cost: 2 :earth
Stats: 1 | 1
Drains  :aether per turn.
:time : Evolve - Evolve into a Shrieker.  That Shrieker has immaterial.
I lowered the cost, but it now drains :aether per turn. Graboid's a strong creature already though.
This goal of this thread is not balance. Let's save that for another post.
Yeah. Let's move on to the next topic.

The People's Response
Quote
I would discourage that because you would either be able to play the creature only in duo (all cards should be playable in a mono, just not usuable to the best possible ability) by forcing death or disabling playing it.
This should not be the reason. Some cards may deserve to be duo only (by duo only I mean X :aether. Absorb :air or cards that are useless without their skill) however those cards should be extremely rare and only attempted with the utmost caution.
Well, what do you guys think?
It's a good alternative and allows the creature to be run in mono as a vanilla-esque creature. I don't suggest doing this if you're a beginner with card design though.

Now, back OT: What about creatures that alternate between 2 skills?
:fire :fire Skill One: Do a random effect and change ability to Skill 2
:entropy :entropy Skill 2: Do some crazy $^#& and change ability to Skill One

Basically, I'm wondering if my Dark Poet | Cursed Poet (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,14796) will ever see some light.
Well, I'm sure the card will see light if you attempt to remake it. Creatures that alternate between 2 skills could possibly make the creature a duo and possibly even a trio. It's not impossible (see burrowing creatures as an example), but it'd be tricky to balance. Again, not recommended if you are a beginner.
What you generally want to avoid:
Try to not make a creature that has 2 active abilities.
But Why?
Well, first of all, it's be really hard to code. (Can you imagine having Zanz needing to code in the extra ability right below the first one? And then he has to make a choice window, as well as alter lobotomizer unless he'd want it to lobotomize all skills).
How to get around it
While you're only limited to 1 active ability, think. How is devourer able to drain quanta and burrow? How is pegasus able to dive and be airborne at the same time? If you've guessed passive abilities, you've got it. Most of the time, the second ability of your creature should be able to be manipulated into a passive ability.
For example:
Quote
Masked Rouge
Cost : 4 :darkness
Stats: 2 | 2
Abilities:
:darkness Disappear - this card cloaks for 1 turn.
:fire Pillage - Sacrifice this card to destroy target permanent.

to
Quote
Masked Rouge
Cost : 4 :darkness
Stats: 2 | 2
Abilities:
Invisible. (Your passive skill.)
:fire Pillage - Sacrifice this card to destroy target permanent.

But Wait! .
   What if the card can't be manipulated like that? Take:
Quote
Gaea Worm:
Cost : 6 :earth
Stats: 4 | 4
:earth : Gaeasynthesis - Generate  :life :life .
:gravity : Acceleration - gains + 2 | -2

Heh, that's a problem. However, there is a way around that:
Make the ability change based on your mark. Weapons check your mark, correct? So having a creature that checks your mark shouldn't be impossible.
Focus on 1 ability. Do you want the card to be related more to Nature or it's way of life?
   Nature, I'd like to have something quanta altering besides Rustler. But imagine I'm a jerk who doesn't want to give the creature a passive like "Generate 1 :life per turn" as a passive. What would I do then?
If you're trying to aim for something similar to rustler, except also as a strong attacker, I would alter the stats to mirror that and then keep Gaesynthesis. The end result:
Quote
Gaea Worm:
Cost : 6 :earth
Stats: 6 | 2
:earth : Gaeasynthesis - Generate  :life :life . This ability can be used multiple times per turn.

While it may not be the best alternative, it does still make a nice attacker as well as retaining the  Nature theme. 

The People's Response
Quote
Make the ability change based on your mark. Weapons check your mark, correct? So having a creature that checks your mark shouldn't be impossible.
Using large modifications to an already used vehicle should not be recommended as the first alternative. Instead suggest splitting the card into two cards and if and only if that wouldn't work then suggest the mark swap. Please stress the focus on splitting complex ideas into smaller ideas.
This is a great way to remake cards with multiple abilities, but the tricky part here is that it may ruin the card's thematicness. Complex ideas may cram up the card text or be plain difficult to understand, but they're almost like a work of art, if you understand what I mean. If you're trying to split up your idea into two cards, try to base them around part of the theme that your original card was based of off.
For Example, a different take on Gaea Worm:
Quote
Drive Worm:
Cost : 3 : Earth
Stats: 1 | 5
Acceleration : Gains  + 2 | -1 per turn.

What you generally want to avoid:
Try not to remake an old ability and put a flashy new name on it.
But Why?
Errr.... cause you look like a ripoff?
Not really.
Because you're being unoriginal?
Close.
Because it's overcomplicating things and SG herself said she doesn't want to see it?
Yep. To quote SG,
Quote from: Scaredgirl
Elements doesn't really need 4 different versions of "Devour", all with different names.
How to get around it
-Just use the normal ability.
-Be creative! If your idea is really similar, try to make it differentiating from the current abilty. For example, let's take Gaea Worm again from where we last left off:
Quote
Gaea Worm:
Cost : 6 :earth
Stats: 6 | 2
:earth : Gaeasynthesis - Generate  :life :life . This ability can be used multiple times per turn.
You can clearly see that this is a ripoff of photosynthesis. However, note that Rin's original version didn't make the ability usable multiple times per turn. 
Quote
Gaea Worm:
Cost : 6 :earth
Stats: 6 | 2
:earth : Gaeasynthesis - Generate  :life :life :life .
The ability can now only used once per turn, so it's different enough from Rustler in
-Rustler can do it anytime it wants, so it's production is more immediate.
-Gaea Worm only does it once per turn, so it's sort of more like a pillar/quanta-producing creature that produces over time.
You added "Multiple times" in your first change on purpose didn't you?
Heh... yeah.  :-[
But Wait!
Alrightly! From Gl1tch,
Suppose you want a light generating creature, but you /don't/ want it to buff hope.
I'd say that's an exception.  Although I'm not sure of what kind of situation this card would arise in, here are a few tricks:
Code the ability under a different name
Make the ability an active ability, sort of like how some creatures are tapped in MTG for mana.
Change the type of quanta produced and then give an ability that converts Quanta X into :light quanta.
  I think coding under a different name is the easiest, it doesn't disrupt the card and would only require a quick copypaste from Zanz. Here's an example:
Quote
Pseudo Star:
Cost : 1 :rainbow
Stats: 0 | 2
False Light - generate :light per turn. This does not stack with hope.
The People's Response
 
Waitin' on ya.  
What you generally want to avoid:
Try not to make a card that targets multiple things.
But Why?
This is mainly due to coding difficulties based on how the current targeting window works. You click 1 thing, something happens. Now, how would you avoid the "something happens step" or cancel without receiving quanta back? That's the problem.
How to get around it
-Make the card target random targets. Most effects will remain similar enough and be balanced at the same time.
-Make the card AoE (aka a card that hits the whole field or one side of the field). This allows you to still keep the concept of a mass effect card, but it actually becomes more effective.
But Wait!
I was thinking - what if I still wanted to target at least one creature, because of something like this:
Quote
Clay Fusion
Cost: 5 :earth
Target 3 Hematite Golems become a Chimera.

I wouldn't want a random selection here because it disrupts the whole point of consuming Hematitie Golems, but I don't want it to just swallow up 3 random Hematite Golems either, because it might swallow my opponent's Golems that I Antimattered!
Well, I'm not exactly sure how so many Golems would be on the same field at the same time, but I can see what you're getting at.  I'd suggest targeting 1 creature you control and then 2 random creatures fuse with it. That way you still have some control over some of the base factors, but you can still use it on your opponent.
Try:
Quote
Clay Fusion
Cost: 4 :earth
Target a Hematite Golem. That Golem and two random creatures fuse to make a Chimera you control.


The People's Response
 
Waitin' on ya. And I didn't get to say anything this time!
Oh come on, we don't always need three people to get something done. Patience, wait for the next issue.
New
What you generally want to avoid:
Try not to makea card that targets the "graveyard" - aka stuff that has already died/been destroyed/discarded.
But Why?
Again, coding difficulties. The game doesn't appear to keep track of stuff that dies. If it does, it'd be pretty hard to code a list in.
How to get around it
-Make the card target the Undead. Skeletons, bone dragons, and similar cards (if they ever come out) are fair game to technically be "revived" into living creatures, especially given Skeleton's effect.
-If you're trying to "revive" a card, try to rather have it as a permanent that spawns something as a death trigger.  If you only want it to happen once, then make the permanent self-destruct afterwards.
But Wait!
Don't remember where, but I do remember seeing a card in the Crucible that would revive random creatures that died.  Is that possible?

I'd just avoid dealing with the "graveyard" in general.

If you're going for mass "revival", try having it summon multiple creatures when something dies or even change the factor it deals with.
Quote
Bone Abomination
0 | 5
:death - Devour a creature in the graveyard. Bone Abomination gains 3 attack.

Tp
Quote
Bone Abomination
X | 5
Whenever a turn passes or a creature dies, put a counter on this card. Bone Abomination's attack is equal to the number of counters/5 rounded down.


The People's Response
Waitin' on ya.


The People's Response
For questions that don't fall into our current categories.





Hey ladies and gents! We'd just like to let you know that you're welcome to drop by and suggest concepts that should be added to this thread!
Keep in mind that although these are some guidelines showcasing what you might avoid, it doesn't necessarily mean Zanz won't implement some of the above concepts in the future!
More will come soon, and we're always welcome to feedback and suggestions!
I just said that.
You didn't say anything about feedback.
Pshhh. Does it really matter?!  >:( Anyway, I hope all the card makers out here benefit from reading this!

Offline Glitch

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Re: A Blademaster's Journal : The Current Limits of Card Making https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20920.msg266767#msg266767
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2011, 03:02:32 am »
Argument for a different ability with the same name:

Suppose you want a light generating creature, but you /don't/ want it to buff hope.

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Re: A Blademaster's Journal : The Current Limits of Card Making https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20920.msg266786#msg266786
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2011, 03:15:13 am »
Quote
I would discourage that because you would either be able to play the creature only in duo (all cards should be playable in a mono, just not usuable to the best possible ability) by forcing death or disabling playing it.
This should not be the reason. Some cards may deserve to be duo only (by duo only I mean X :aether. Absorb :air or cards that are useless without their skill) however those cards should be extremely rare and only attempted with the utmost caution.

Quote
Make the ability change based on your mark. Weapons check your mark, correct? So having a creature that checks your mark shouldn't be impossible.
Using large modifications to an already used vehicle should not be recommended as the first alternative. Instead suggest splitting the card into two cards and if and only if that wouldn't work then suggest the mark swap. Please stress the focus on splitting complex ideas into smaller ideas.

Glitch also has a good point.

However this is a good resource and made in an enjoyable manner.
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Re: A Blademaster's Journal : The Current Limits of Card Making https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20920.msg266791#msg266791
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2011, 03:19:42 am »
Nice puppet show.

Now, back OT: What about creatures that alternate between 2 skills?
:fire :fire Skill One: Do a random effect and change ability to Skill 2
:entropy :entropy Skill 2: Do some crazy $^#& and change ability to Skill One

Basically, I'm wondering if my Dark Poet | Cursed Poet (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,14796) will ever see some light.
Perception is the source of misunderstanding.

Why, yes. I do have a Mindgate necklace. It's how I ninja everyone.

Offline ZephyrPhantomTopic starter

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Re: A Blademaster's Journal : The Current Limits of Card Making https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20920.msg266799#msg266799
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2011, 03:24:12 am »
New section added:

The People's Response A pro-discussion section where the three of us look at viewer suggestions and discuss how effective they are.

Thanks for the feedback guys!  Feel free to suggest more issues on card making!

Offline ZephyrPhantomTopic starter

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Re: A Blademaster's Journal : The Current Limits of Card Making https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20920.msg268957#msg268957
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2011, 09:39:42 pm »
Since Editing a post doesn't register on the replies page, I have no way of knowing whether or not you'll have answered my questions. I recommend you gather up all the questions, and answer them in a new post. 7 questions per post should work.
As a result of this^, the People's Response now goes mobile. Every 7 questions/suggestions (excluding this one which is also meant to be a bump), I will put up a new post with responses to the issue, as well as add the suggestions to the main post.

The People's Response
Recent Additions:
Gl1tch's Argument added:
Alrightly! From Gl1tch,
Suppose you want a light generating creature, but you /don't/ want it to buff hope.
I'd say that's an exception.  Although I'm not sure of what kind of situation this card would arise in, here are a few tricks:
Code the ability under a different name
Make the ability an active ability, sort of like how some creatures are tapped in MTG for mana.
Change the type of quanta produced and then give an ability that converts Quanta X into :light quanta.
  I think coding under a different name is the easiest, it doesn't disrupt the card and would only require a quick copypaste from Zanz. Here's an example:
Quote
Pseudo Star:
Cost : 1 :rainbow
Stats: 0 | 2
False Light - generate :light per turn. This does not stack with hope.
Added Try not to make a card that targets multiple things.


Feedback
Responses to - Try to avoid making a card cost X (or any variable cost) or have it color multiple quantas (For example, a "Phase Graboid" that costs 2  :aether and 2  :earth )



Quote
I would discourage that because you would either be able to play the creature only in duo (all cards should be playable in a mono, just not usuable to the best possible ability) by forcing death or disabling playing it.
This should not be the reason. Some cards may deserve to be duo only (by duo only I mean X :aether. Absorb :air or cards that are useless without their skill) however those cards should be extremely rare and only attempted with the utmost caution.
Well, what do you guys think?
It's a good alternative and allows the creature to be run in mono as a vanilla-esque creature. I don't suggest doing this if you're a beginner with card design though.


Now, back OT: What about creatures that alternate between 2 skills?
:fire :fire Skill One: Do a random effect and change ability to Skill 2
:entropy :entropy Skill 2: Do some crazy $^#& and change ability to Skill One

Basically, I'm wondering if my Dark Poet | Cursed Poet (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,14796) will ever see some light.
Well, I'm sure the card will see light if you attempt to remake it. Creatures that alternate between 2 skills could possibly make the creature a duo and possibly even a trio. It's not impossible (see burrowing creatures as an example), but it'd be tricky to balance. Again, not recommended if you are a beginner.


Responses to - Try to not make a creature that has 2 active abilities.
Quote
Make the ability change based on your mark. Weapons check your mark, correct? So having a creature that checks your mark shouldn't be impossible.
Using large modifications to an already used vehicle should not be recommended as the first alternative. Instead suggest splitting the card into two cards and if and only if that wouldn't work then suggest the mark swap. Please stress the focus on splitting complex ideas into smaller ideas.
This is a great way to remake cards with multiple abilities, but the tricky part here is that it may ruin the card's thematicness. Complex ideas may cram up the card text or be plain difficult to understand, but they're almost like a work of art, if you understand what I mean. If you're trying to split up your idea into two cards, try to base them around part of the theme that your original card was based of off.
For Example, a different take on Gaea Worm:
Quote
Drive Worm:
Cost : 3 : Earth
Stats: 1 | 5
Acceleration : Gains  + 2 | -1 per turn.

Offline Nepycros

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Re: A Blademaster's Journal : The Current Limits of Card Making https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20920.msg268975#msg268975
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2011, 10:17:50 pm »
Could we have cards that are based on combining other cards, not through fusion, but through simply sacrificing required cards to make something that isn't standalone? For example, my Stone Tablet | Great Tablet (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,16238).

Also, regarding my next idea, is it possible for a permanent to generate creatures? Ancient Doorway | Ancient Gate (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,19941)
Perception is the source of misunderstanding.

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Offline OldTrees

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Re: A Blademaster's Journal : The Current Limits of Card Making https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20920.msg268986#msg268986
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2011, 10:32:27 pm »
Could we have cards that are based on combining other cards, not through fusion, but through simply sacrificing required cards to make something that isn't standalone? For example, my Stone Tablet | Great Tablet (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,16238).

Also, regarding my next idea, is it possible for a permanent to generate creatures? Ancient Doorway | Ancient Gate (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,19941)
There are two cards like this in game: Skeleton and Malignant Cell
We have learned from skeleton and malignant cell that cards work better as viable standalone cards.
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Re: A Blademaster's Journal : The Current Limits of Card Making https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20920.msg269018#msg269018
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2011, 11:40:20 pm »
Argument for a different ability with the same name:

Suppose you want a light generating creature, but you /don't/ want it to buff hope.
Passive Skill: Focus - Change one random quanta from your pool into a Light quanta.
(kind of a reverse Devour?)

Offline ZephyrPhantomTopic starter

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Re: A Blademaster's Journal : The Current Limits of Card Making https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20920.msg274886#msg274886
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2011, 09:50:09 pm »
I would like more feedback on this since I will gradually add more issues for discussion.


The People's Response
Added:
Try not to make a card that targets the "graveyard."
Added seperate People's Response section for questions that don't fall into categories.
Spoilered the concepts and labeled them. The newest concept is not spoilered.


Could we have cards that are based on combining other cards, not through fusion, but through simply sacrificing required cards to make something that isn't standalone? For example, my Stone Tablet | Great Tablet (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,16238).

Also, regarding my next idea, is it possible for a permanent to generate creatures? Yes, just give it an abiltiy that spawns creatures. I believe creatures and permanents share the same ability system. Ancient Doorway | Ancient Gate (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,19941)
There are two cards like this in game: Skeleton and Malignant Cell
We have learned from skeleton and malignant cell that cards work better as viable standalone cards.
Thanks for the help Oldtrees. I agree with this, considering that skeleton has had constant arguments to become a token card until it was recently changed.
I actually don't agree. It should depend on the card itself. Think :
-Do you want a deck to be able to use this creature on it's own?
-Is this creature useful/too powerful standalone?
-If the token card is an unupgraded card only, is it worth making an upgraded counterpart.
-Is the card meant to create a relationship between the spawner and the spawned? How so?
Consider all of these before you change a token card into a standalone card.
Passive Skill: Focus - Change one random quanta from your pool into a Light quanta.
(kind of a reverse Devour?)
This has been noted, but thank you for suggesting.
Quote
Make the ability an active ability, sort of like how some creatures are tapped in MTG for mana.
Change the type of quanta produced and then give an ability that converts Quanta X into :light  quanta.

Offline TimerClock14

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Re: A Blademaster's Journal : The Current Limits of Card Making https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20920.msg274953#msg274953
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2011, 11:41:14 pm »
I enjoy the role play element you have here, makes the walls of text a bit more entertaining to read. ^_^
However, at times it can get a little busy and therein, confusing. So I'd suggest you use mini-tables, like the ones SG uses in the Forum FAQ.
Here's an example:
Thanks for the help Oldtrees. I agree with this, considering that skeleton has had constant arguments to become a token card until it was recently changed.
Could be

Thanks for the help Oldtrees. I agree with this, considering that skeleton has had constant arguments to become a token card until it was recently changed.


This way, you can have organized discussions between the characters.
For a better example:
Hi my name is Sonic the Hedgehog. SEGA made me a couple years back and I became a long line of popular video games in the years after, I also became a popular animated series.
Hey there, my name is Megaman. I was created by CAPCOM a long time ago, back when the best graphics were 16x16 pixels. I since became a long running series of games and eventually became a popular animated series. I was made into a platformer first, and then an RPG when the Megaman Battle Network video games were released.


Here's the code:
Code: [Select]
[table]
[tr]
[td][img width=50 height=50]***image url***[/img][/td][td]***text***[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
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Offline ZephyrPhantomTopic starter

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Re: A Blademaster's Journal : The Current Limits of Card Making https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20920.msg274965#msg274965
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2011, 12:02:53 am »
Thanks for the format Timer. This will help me a lot.
Haha, moar mass editing for you.
Timer, did you even bother to look up Rin Kagamine?! I feelz unimportant.  :'(
*casts Silence* Again thanks. I will edit the older articles with this soon.

 

blarg: