Post by: Nevzara on May 01, 2013, 12:10:08 pm
So the plan is to make my dragons into vampires so they heal me obviously and then purify them so they heal themselves constantly (at this point fairly resilient to CC). The problem im facing is quanta balance (the quantum pillars are place holders), what mark to use and well overall balance really.
Advice?
Help?
Thanks in advance
Post by: Chapuz on May 01, 2013, 12:56:55 pm
Post by: dragonsdemesne on May 01, 2013, 01:15:07 pm
The dragons hit just as hard as the light ones, and purify will keep them from dying to liquid shadow. The darkness pillars and mark of water means you won't be quanta screwed like you will be 99% of the time with the quantum pillar build. You could even try to do it with water pillars, water dragons, and a darkness mark, but I don't think that the quanta balance would work as well there, and the only reason I'd even consider that would be if you upgraded the dragons, the water ones have 13 attack, but unupgraded, I'd definitely do it with darkness dragons.
edit: if you wanted to try Chapuz' idea, it could look something like this:
I don't like the quanta balance on that one as much as the darkness/water one, but hopefully you'll get some ideas for how you want to build it yourself.
Post by: ColorlessGreen on May 01, 2013, 03:33:42 pm
If you're really worried about healing your dragons (which you don't really need to worry about I don't think, but still) you could add a couple of the oft-ignored holy lights, which would double as self-healing in some cases in case you really wanted that extra 10 electrum from getting an EM.
Post by: skyironsword on May 01, 2013, 08:55:26 pm
Post by: dragonsdemesne on May 01, 2013, 08:58:44 pm
It says in the post, "the quantum pillars are placeholders"
Heh, I totally missed that :p Even so, I think turning it into a duo of some sort is probably a better idea anyway. I can't think of any combination of pillars/pendulums/nova/etc that would make me happy with that deck.
Post by: Kress on May 01, 2013, 09:03:53 pm
but RT will kill you
Post by: Nevzara on May 02, 2013, 01:35:34 am
It says in the post, "the quantum pillars are placeholders"
thanks for noticing, i was about to scream haha
The dragons hit just as hard as the light ones, and purify will keep them from dying to liquid shadow. The darkness pillars and mark of water means you won't be quanta screwed like you will be 99% of the time with the quantum pillar build. You could even try to do it with water pillars, water dragons, and a darkness mark, but I don't think that the quanta balance would work as well there, and the only reason I'd even consider that would be if you upgraded the dragons, the water ones have 13 attack, but unupgraded, I'd definitely do it with darkness dragons.
the black dragons do have an equal attack but just a single lightning will take it out and if i dont have a purify it'll die in five turns, the light dragon also upgrades better
im running with this atm but its not right yet, still working on it
Post by: Gandora on May 02, 2013, 04:47:18 am
Post by: Nevzara on May 02, 2013, 04:59:25 am
Why do you want purify so badly? Blessings, giving you 3atk and HP, should be enough considering the Light dragons already high HP. Alternatevily, you could put in some guardian angels. 2-3 should be enough to heal your dragons.
blessing is good but my dragons are still slowly dieing and guardian angels are good but the deck will loose focus. as far as i can see purify is the only way to fully solve the problem of the poison liquid shadow inflicts. as soon as i use liquid shadows my dragons become a top priority to AIs and if i cant protect them from it i loose my only attack and healing and purify does that the best, i just cant balance it
Post by: CuCN on May 02, 2013, 05:10:52 am
Post by: Nevzara on May 02, 2013, 05:13:02 am
How will Guardian Angels make the deck lose focus? They add an in-element way to keep your dragons from dying, instead of needing a third element (which, as has been said, is hard to balance). The deck is still about vampire dragons that don't die to the poison.
you may have a point, could you post a deck image?
Post by: CuCN on May 02, 2013, 05:48:53 am
Post by: Nevzara on May 02, 2013, 05:51:38 am
scrap my last comment, it works amazing as an AI4 farmer XD
applying for it to be moved
Post by: Gandora on May 02, 2013, 10:28:14 am
scrap my last comment, it works amazing as an AI4 farmer XD
applying for it to be moved
Glad to hear that :)
Post by: Nevzara on May 02, 2013, 11:18:17 am
Post by: Chapuz on May 02, 2013, 12:10:14 pm
Post by: Nevzara on May 02, 2013, 12:18:21 pm
I would totally go for the 2nd deck dragonsdemesne proposed.
which?
could you post a deck image
Post by: Chapuz on May 02, 2013, 12:26:41 pm
I am on my phone, sorry. the one with 6 dragons and 6 LS.I would totally go for the 2nd deck dragonsdemesne proposed.
which?
could you post a deck image
Post by: Nevzara on May 02, 2013, 12:42:37 pm
I am on my phone, sorry. the one with 6 dragons and 6 LS.I would totally go for the 2nd deck dragonsdemesne proposed.
which?
could you post a deck image
no problem, do you mean the one with the black dragons?
if so i find black dragons are far to weak in comparison to their white counter parts especially when faced with staunch CC
Post by: Chapuz on May 02, 2013, 01:21:50 pm
Post by: Nevzara on May 02, 2013, 01:25:11 pm
Post by: omegareaper7 on May 02, 2013, 02:02:46 pm
How will Guardian Angels make the deck lose focus? They add an in-element way to keep your dragons from dying, instead of needing a third element (which, as has been said, is hard to balance). The deck is still about vampire dragons that don't die to the poison.They slow the deck down and take up draw space. Unless targeted by multiple CC cards, they aren't going to die for at least 5 turns. That is 50 damage a piece with healing to boot before being in the danger zone.
Post by: ColorlessGreen on May 02, 2013, 03:13:23 pm
(1) In the base deck, the only creature you have is the dragons, so they will always be the top priority for CC.
(2) In the event of an opponent without CC, where poison from liquid shadow is the only damage your dragon takes, a single dragon will kill the opponent at the same time it dies itself, so you don't need to worry about healing the dragon.
(3) In the event of an opponent with CC, they would still need to use 2-3 cards per dragon, and the number of cards per dragon they would have to use would not change from the poison your dragon is taking until your dragon had managed to do a lot of damage.
(4) With a small number of notable exceptions, most of the decks you'll face aren't going to be heavy enough on CC to be realistically able to take out more than one dragon.
(5) Adding an additional element for healing severely unbalances your quanta. It isn't always a bad thing to add an element and cope with much more unbalanced quanta, but it isn't a great idea when you're adding an element to take care of a problem that can already be handled in-element.
(6) The +3 hp from blessing adds a card to the number of CC cards required to kill your dragons at high hp, and also can reduce the number of turns you need to hit your opponent with your dragon(s) before winning.
(7) Like I said before, while I still don't think you really need to worry about healing in most cases (in that I believe that the losses to speed/stability you'll suffer in situations where healing won't be useful will be greater than the gains to stability/survivability you'll receive in situations where healing is useful), 1-2 holy lights can mitigate 2-3 CC cards worth of damage apiece, and also won't be dead cards in the (frequent) situations where healing your 10-base-hp creatures isn't actually necessary, since they can be used to heal you.
(8) If you want another way to consider the healing aspect, think about this: Not very many creature decks use creature healing cards. Your base creature has 10 hp, which puts it as one of the highest base-hp creatures in the game. Your dragon would have to attack a minimum of five times (for 50 damage to the opponent and 50 healing to you) before it would reach the 5 hp that a lot of the unupped dragons have, which is still an amount of hp that's widely considered to be mostly out of CC range, since it can still only be taken out by lightning or high-quanta bolts. Lightning isn't really a huge issue for the most part because if you're against aether you're going to just flat-out lose to dim shield (as you have no PC/momentum/etc), and bolts aren't really a huge issue because if you're against a fire stall, you're also going to probably just flat-out lose (as they are sufficiently packed with CC that healing isn't ever going to be an issue).
TL;DR: I still say don't add water just for purify. If you want creature healing (which you don't really need), stay in-element and use blessing, holy light, or guardian angel (in that order of my personal preference). Staying in-element will give you much better draws overall due to having a much lower chance of failing to draw the appropriate quanta.
Post by: Nevzara on May 03, 2013, 03:23:07 am
the biggest problems i face is ice shields (4-5 turns with no damage and no healing really puts you back), creatures with built in CC and gravity pull. ive played games against AI4 where the opponent gravity pulls one of my dragons and does 8 damage a turn but because i had two angels that dragon protected me and lasted a further 7ish turns. iv'e also had problems with poison decks stacking poison on my already damaged dragons but again saved by angels (5 poison on a ten health creature would normally be a really bad position to be in even if i blessed it). and then there is ice shields (also thorn caprice) both of which would loose me the game if not for angels (admittedly a thorn caprice will wipe out my angels too but i still last three or four more turns)
as for fire stall i win most of those games with out much fuss and dim shields destroy me no matter what
also although i can normally get one or two dragons out within the fourth turn it takes allot more time to get more than that out so just taking out one of my dragons can loose me the game in allot of cases