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MaxMilen

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Max's Nymphs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6699.msg71199#msg71199
« on: May 19, 2010, 04:46:30 pm »
NOTE: The deck in this post is not the current form; that is in Reply #7.

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5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6rn 6rn 6rn 6ts 6u3 6u3 6u3 710 719 719 71b 744 77f 77i 77i 77i 7ac 7aj 7gs 7h8 7h8 7n2 7n2 7q0 7q5 7q5 7q5 7q5 7q7 7q8 7t9 7t9 808 808 80d 80d 80h 80h 80h
I've been using this lately for PVP2, Top 50, and against Fake Gods. It seems to mostly work well, but may yet have a kink or two that could be worked out.

This is not a fast deck. ([sarcasm]Gee, what a surprise.[/sarcasm]) I basically stall and draw until I get what I need, and once I do, start creating nymphs.

This deck does have some bad matchups, such as Divine Glory and anything heavy on Momentum effects (especially if it can also make those creatures immortal). Basically, if I can successfully stall long enough to get stuff together, I usually win, and often get Elemental Master; if not, I usually lose.

The Sundials not being upgraded is on purpose; I prefer the non-upgraded version.

Any (relevant) questions, comments, and suggestions are welcome.

Iblis

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Re: Max's Nymphs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6699.msg71202#msg71202
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2010, 04:57:28 pm »
Do you ever use Quantum Towers to make Nymphs? Or is it always the element-specific towers?

MaxMilen

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Re: Max's Nymphs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6699.msg71206#msg71206
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2010, 05:09:43 pm »
Do you ever use Quantum Towers to make Nymphs? Or is it always the element-specific towers?
Unless I absolutely have to nymph a Quantum Tower, only the element-specific ones.

Offline kev

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Re: Max's Nymphs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6699.msg71210#msg71210
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2010, 05:22:59 pm »
Do you have stats?  Honestly I can't see something like this getting a 15% winrate against FGs.  It looks like it'd be fun to play but ignores most of the more traditional FG deck building methodologies.

Including:
It lacks the more traditional creature controls (otys and firestorms).
It lacks the more traditional damage cards (FFQs, graveyard/druid, and golems).
Only three creatures total, all of whom have a cost of 8.
The deck seems to have conflicting goals (eg. a Poseidon for quantum control).
60 cards is too many.
Not having 6 supernovas seems criminal.
Honestly, I just don't like dials in most decks post-nerf.
2 animates are super situational.
Same for the PAs given the shields you've chosen and the fact you apparently are animating your weapons.

I know that's a long list and I'm trying not to be offensive.  I think one of the more conventional FG decks would be a huge improvement, though.

Edit: w00t!  100 posts!

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Re: Max's Nymphs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6699.msg71259#msg71259
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2010, 07:14:36 pm »
Stats would be good. Why need specific pillars? Quantum pillars are just as good, but just random. Or just pack the spells instead. Water Nymphs are hard to get, especialy 2 of them! Adding an Empathic Bond and FFQ would be good too, just take off one PA and Quintessence.

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Re: Max's Nymphs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6699.msg71294#msg71294
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2010, 07:55:22 pm »
seems too bulky 60 why so many some dont seem neccesary and what are the stats on it?

MaxMilen

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Re: Max's Nymphs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6699.msg71777#msg71777
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2010, 02:40:15 pm »
Responding to some of the points in above posts, possibly out of order...

I don't really keep stats, though when I saw kevkev60614's post, I did 20 FG matches, and ended up winning 3 (so, just barely 15%).

While I have been using this deck for occasional FG matches, it's really meant more for Top 50 and PVP2. That should help explain a few things.

Yes, 60 cards is bulky, but in this case, it seems to work out. Probably because of all the draw; as is, I often end up drawing out my whole deck, and using Eternity to keep myself from decking. On a side note, I always play Sundials one at a time (unless I need to play more to avoid discarding at end of turn), and unless I absolutely need to stop attacks, I'll usually only use them if I have a Light quantum for the draw effect.

The Protect Artifacts are mostly used for Shards, Hourglasses, and/or my third weapon.

I use specific pillars because they're dependable in terms of which Nymph I get. For example, I'll usually Nymph an Aether Tower first, so that I can then make all of my future Nymphs/animated weapons immortal as soon as they hit. Also, by using specific pillars, I can use one of my Protect Artifacts on the Quantum Towers if I'm up against an opponent that uses Pillar destruction (i.e. Quicksand and/or Poseidon).

The point about the Supernovas is well taken. I'm working on a round of changes as I write this post, and one of my goals for those changes is to get myself up to 6 Supernovas. Given that, I may change my mark to Entropy; I'm undecided on that part.

I can definitely see adding in a Firefly Queen/Elite Queen; I'll be looking into that as I make changes.

That I'm not using the usual creature controls was mentioned. The Plagues end up pretty much filling the role that Fire Storms usually would (though I do have Fire Storms as well, so could switch out or add them). As for the fact that I'm not running Elite Otyugh... well, I usually use alternate methods to that. For example, having Purple Nymph do an Antimatter effect.

Yes, Water Nymphs are hard to get. What can I say? I got lucky with the Oracle.

And some additional thoughts of my own...

I'm probably going to drop the Bone Tower in favor of an Obsidian Tower. The Aflatoxin effect really doesn't fit well, whereas the Liquid Shadow effect dovetails nicely with the Antimatter effect.

Strictly speaking, Poseidon isn't necessary, though it does help (particularly in conjunction with Gravity's Nymph).


Thanks for all the feedback! I'll post the new changes once I've had a chance to figure out what they'll be and test them a bit. In the meantime, I welcome additional suggestions.

MaxMilen

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Re: Max's Nymphs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6699.msg72437#msg72437
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2010, 04:50:54 pm »
Well, based on the feedback I've received, I did indeed make changes. Below is the deck as it now stands.

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4vg 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6rn 6rn 6ts 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 719 719 77f 77i 77i 7ac 7aj 7am 7h8 7h8 7n2 7n3 7q0 7q5 7q5 7q5 7q5 7q7 7q8 7t4 7t9 7t9 7t9 808 808 80d 80d 80h 80h 80h
And, since people will of course be curious about stats... I did another 20 FG games, taking notes as I went. Here are said notes.

Quote
Match 1: vs. Seism
Result: Loss
Comments: Made a major misplay on what ended up as my last turn -- played Elite Anubis, which used up my Time quanta, when I needed to use the Sundial I also had in hand... probably would have lost anyway.

Match 2: vs. Destiny
Result: Win
Comments: I was worried when one of his early Fate Eggs became Elite Mummy, which he made into a Pharaoh, but I was able to keep up my stall and counter-swarm him thanks to my Nymphs and Elite Queen.

Match 3: vs. Dream Catcher
Result: Loss
Comments: Not even close. He had quantum denial going strong from the get-go. The real kiss of death was his second Butterfly Effect (which was on a Deja Vu).

Match 4: vs. Incarnate
Result: Loss
Comments: Opening seemed promising, but Hourglass didn't show up early enough, and the follow-through just wasn't there.

Match 5: vs. Chaos Lord
Result: Loss
Comments: Plenty of Towers and Supernovas, but not enough stall, and he got very lucky with Improves (Antlion with Ablaze, Shrieker with Growth, and Bone Dragon with Ablaze).

Match 6: vs. Fire Queen
Result: Win, EM
Comments: Fire Queen seemed to have some weird luck. For the first few turns, she got plenty of Towers and Empathic Bonds, but not much else. I ended up stealing 3 Empathic Bonds, and blowing up the rest with Pulverizer. By the time her Elite Queens did start hitting the field, I was ready for them -- they fell fairly quickly to Spine Carapace. Meanwhile, my own Elite Queen hit early, and so I was swarming her with my own Fireflies until the Nymphs joined the fun.

Match 7: vs. Neptune
Result: Win, EM
Comments: All three of my Steals ended up being used on his weapons. I even animated one of them. (This would later mean I had to get rid of my own Pulverizer to play Eternity, but, meh.) I did end up drawing out my deck, and using Eternity to loop a Firefly.

Match 8: vs. Ferox
Result: Loss
Comments: Major Tower shortage. Opening hand had 1 Aether Tower. Only drew my first Quantum Tower barely in time to not have to discard at EOT (and would later have to for a few turns, because I wasn't drawing stuff I could play.)

Match 9: vs. Paradox
Result: Win, EM (Morning Glory from slots!)
Comments: Things went swimmingly right from the beginning. Funniest part had to be what led to the last bit of damage; I Nymphed one of his Aether Towers, Antimatter'd it, Liquid Shadow'd it, and made it immortal.

Match 10: vs. Neptune
Result: Loss.
Comments: I got off to a slow start. He didn't.

Match 11: vs. Hermes
Result: Loss.
Comments: He got out two Lava Destroyers and a Crimson Dragon quickly, and I had no stall.

Match 12: vs. Dark Matter
Result: Loss.
Comments: Dark Matter is one of this deck's bad matchups. I got one Quantum Tower the whole time, and he was pouring on the Black Holes. I didn't stand a chance.

Match 13: vs. Octane
Result: Loss.
Comments: My Shards showed up too late to allow me to live through the Unstable Gases.

Match 14: vs. Octane (again)
Result: Loss.
Comments: Held out for a little while, but he eventually killed me with three Fire Lances to the face.

Match 15: vs. Destiny
Result: Win, EM.
Comments: Early on, he used 3 Chaos Powers on one Leaf Dragon, and it ended up at 2/14. Every Hourglass he played got either stolen or Pulverized. Drew out my deck.

Match 16: vs. Decay
Result: Loss.
Comments: Things were looking good for a while, but eventually, I took one too many Siphon Lifes to the face.

Match 17: vs. Obliterator
Result: Loss.
Comments: Pulverizer + Enchant Artifact = I cry.

Match 18: vs. Miracle
Result: Win.
Comments: This one took forever. On the other hand, though, plenty of time to make Miracle's creatures into negative vampires.

Match 19: vs. Scorpio
Result: Loss.
Comments: Pour on the Poison damage! And me without any of my Life Gain...

Match 20: vs. Scorpio (again)
Result: Loss.
Comments: Couldn't keep up with the poison damage.
tl;dr: Out of those 20 games, I got 6 wins (so 30% win rate), of which 4 were Elemental Masters.

Offline kev

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Re: Max's Nymphs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6699.msg72454#msg72454
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2010, 05:12:02 pm »
Thanks for the stats and the write up and congrats on proving me wrong. :) Incidentally I wish there were more posters like you.  You posted something different, posted it with a picture, deck code and relatively clear goals, and it was clear you put thought into your post.  You were willing to listen to feedback and as a result may have bettered your deck and helped others learn from it as well.

I still don't quite get it, so I guess I'm going to have to take it to trainer to figure out how the deck works.

MaxMilen

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Re: Max's Nymphs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6699.msg72505#msg72505
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2010, 06:37:27 pm »
Thanks for the stats and the write up and congrats on proving me wrong. :) Incidentally I wish there were more posters like you.  You posted something different, posted it with a picture, deck code and relatively clear goals, and it was clear you put thought into your post.  You were willing to listen to feedback and as a result may have bettered your deck and helped others learn from it as well.

I still don't quite get it, so I guess I'm going to have to take it to trainer to figure out how the deck works.
And thank you for the detailed feedback. Your suggestions were a big help. Going up to 6 Supernovas has been especially helpful. Not too surprising in retrospect -- this deck is pretty quantum-hungry, and in a lot of different colors.

If there are any questions I can answer about the deck, feel free to ask.

I'm debating whether to upgrade the Dissipation Shield, or even whether to keep it. On the one hand, the upgraded version leaves me less dependent on one color to keep up my defenses; on the other, well, it drains my other quanta, and it does it at 1-to-1 instead of 3-to-1 -- not to mention that if the upgraded version does go away, chances are that I'm pretty helpless.

MaxMilen

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Re: Max's Nymphs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6699.msg72923#msg72923
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2010, 01:48:26 pm »
I've been continuing to test this deck, and found what may be an issue. This deck is particularly hungry for Water quanta (no surprise there), and there have been times when I haven't been getting enough of them from the Quantum Towers and Supernovas. The Towers are, after all, a bit of a matter of luck, and the Supernovas only go so far. Considering just how important the Hourglasses and Sundials are, though, I'm iffy on switching to Water mark, and adding in Sapphire Towers seems risky as well.

Especially considering that I'm running Elite Queen (and can Adrenaline the Fireflies -- I've been known to do that), I'm considering switching from Plagues to Fire Storms, and/or working in Fahrenheit (I have one, upgraded). Lava Destroyer or the upgraded Fire Spirit could also be an option, as could a Burning Tower for its Nymph.

I'm still debating on the Dissipation Shield. Perhaps, if I go with working in some Fire stuff, I'll consider switching it for a Fire Buckler, as an additional option for creature control.

Well, I'm still open to further feedback.


EDIT: Did another 20 False God games with this, and as usual, made notes as I went. Here are those notes.

Quote
Match 1: vs. Eternal Phoenix
Result: Loss.
Comments: Phoenix swarm + plenty of Explosions = quick beatdown.

Match 2: vs. Eternal Phoenix (again)
Result: Loss.
Comments: Second verse, same as the first.

Match 3: vs. Osiris
Result: Win, EM (2 Pharaohs AND Unstoppable from Slots)
Comments: This guy would be a lot harder if he weren't so stupid about Devouring creatures that have been poisoned.

Match 4: vs. Obliterator
Result: Loss.
Comments: Things were looking unusually good for a while, especially since he didn't get any Black Holes or Unstoppables the whole time. Unfortunately, he did eventually pull off an Enchanted Pulverizer, and I got beaten down.

Match 5: vs. Decay
Result: Loss.
Comments: One too many Siphon Lifes to the face.

Match 6: vs. Obliterator
Result: Loss.
Comments: Enchanted Pulverizer and a bevy of Shriekers. Ouch.

Match 7: vs. Morte
Result: Loss.
Comments: Absolutely horrid opening draws.

Match 8: vs. Destiny
Result: Win.
Comments: Opening was a little dubious, but then I stole his first Hourglass before he got to use it. Eventually, Pulverizer joined the fun, and while he did get a bunch of draws from Hourglasses, they eventually were all gone (or mine). I ended up drawing out my deck and using the Eternity trick.

Match 9: vs. Osiris
Result: Win, EM. (Pharaoh from slots.)
Comments: I actually used Sundials to draw out the game a couple of turns so I'd get the EM. Of course, this was after his own stupidity with Devouring poisoned creatures saved me at one point. (And people wonder why I use Plague over Fire Storm, and Carapace over Fire Buckler? This is an example.) That reprieve turned out to be just enough to let me get control of the game.

Match 10: vs. Elidnis
Result: Loss.
Comments: He got out an immortal Forest Spectre very quickly, and I didn't have stall.

Match 11: vs. Chaos Lord
Result: Loss.
Comments: Not even close. I just couldn't do stuff in time, and my stall wasn't there.

Match 12: vs. Fire Queen
Result: Loss.
Comments: My opening hand was horriffic. Until Turn 4 (when I drew my first Quantum Tower), my only quantum generation was my mark and Emerald Tower. I was actually starting to recover from that when I got killed by a low-power Fire Lance to the face.

Match 13: vs. Decay
Result: Loss.
Comments: I blame this on two things. One, my first (and only) Hourglass got stolen. Two, he used FIVE Siphon Lifes on me in one turn.

Match 14: vs. Miracle
Result: Loss.
Comments: Held out for a while thanks to Sundials, but once they ran out, he beat me down. A couple of Light Dragons'll do that...

Match 15: vs. Octane
Result: Win. (Fire Buckler from slots)
Comments: Honestly, I was flabbergasted. Usually, this is one of this deck's worst matchups, due to his permanent control and the fast damage from the Unstable Gases. The Explosions apparently didn't show, and while he did play a lot of Eagle's Eyes and Gases, they all ended up getting Pulverized, or in the case of the Eagle's Eyes he animated, taken down by the combination of an Eagle's Eye I had stolen from him and Carapace. Oh, I was on fairly low health when I won (somewhere in the 20's), but still.

Match 16: vs. Incarnate
Result: Loss.
Comments: Stall shortage. Shame, too, because it was an otherwise good opening.

Match 17: vs. Ferox
Result: Loss.
Comments: Considering how often quantum shortages are a problem, it's almost ironic that this time, the problem was too many Towers (and not enough other things).

Match 18: vs. Hermes
Result: Loss.
Comments: I can just hear Sonic's taunt now -- "You're too slow!"

Match 19: vs. Hermes (again)
Result: Loss.
Comments: He didn't get quite as fast a start as before, but he still beat me down before I could do much.

Match 20: vs. Paradox
Result: Win, EM.
Comments: He was actually off to a good start. Then I stole his first Hourglass before he could use it. Then I stole his SECOND Hourglass before he could use it. Then I stole his THIRD Hourglass before he could use it. Meanwhile, Plague was taking out the field he had intially built up, while I hid behind some Phase shields. He made a valiant effort, and actually had me worried when he got a Ray of Light to 10/10 and made a bunch of copies (I think there ended up being about 6 of it). Dissipation Shield and Nymphs to the rescue!
tl;dr: 5 wins this time, including 3 Elemental Masters. That's a 25% win rate for just this group of 20, and 27.5% win rate for the 40 games I've tracked.

MaxMilen

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Re: Max's Nymphs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6699.msg73913#msg73913
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2010, 02:32:00 pm »
Well, I'm still testing and tweaking, but I thought I'd give some more detailed notes on the strategy for this deck, since people seem to be curious. So, below is basically a list of tips, tricks, and the like.

- One of the key points of this deck is that it can make every one of its creatures immortal. Of course, that does mean that one of the Quintessences MUST be held back for Elite Anubis or one of the Aether Nymphs.
- Speaking of Aether Nymph, that is almost always the first Nymph I make.
- And speaking of making creatures immortal... make sure to do so. It's alright to let a Firefly sit there unprotected, but pretty much everything else shouldn't be played (or made into a creature) if it can't be immortalized.
- There are two reasons why Aether is the only colored pillar I'm running two of. One, it's the one I want first. Two, I actually do want to be able to make two, when possible. Once things get to a certain point, I often am spawning/playing two to three creatures per turn, so I want to be sure I can make them immortal.
- Hourglasses, and the draw effects from the Sundials, are essential. Many of this deck's cards are not standalone, so if this deck goes too long only drawing one card per turn, things usually don't go well.
- The  :time Nymph is actually not that important. (I'm currently experimenting with not even using the Time Tower, and just having that be another Quantum Tower.) The other Nymphs are important, but the Hourglasses and Sundials provide enough draw that the  :time Nymph is actually overkill.
- It is important to ALWAYS watch quanta closely. I've had a few embarrassing losses because I failed to leave enough  :time quanta for Eternity or Sundial, for example.
- Speaking of which, watch the deck count. It's very common for this deck to completely draw itself out, so you have to make sure that you don't accidentally lose by having no deck left.
- This deck is very quanta-hungry, mostly for :time:water:life, and  :aether. Most of the other colors get used, but those four are the colors with most of the expensive stuff. ( :entropy is a little less heavily used than the main four, but still important.)
- This isn't a rush deck. Quite the opposite. Yes, its primary win condition is damage from attacking creatures, but it's not quick about it.
- Running 2 Water Nymphs is really more "because I can" and to help make sure I get it soon enough, rather than because both actually need to be played. It's not at all unusual for me to play one, and then just let the other hang out in my hand for the rest of the game. On the other hand, if my quanta pool allows, it can be helpful to have both going. (As such, this deck would probably work just fine with only one Water Nymph, and if you don't have the actual Nymph, it could probably be done with a couple of Sapphire Towers and 1-2 Nymph's Tears.)
- The stall aspect is essential. The reason I run 6 Sundials, 2 Phase Shields, and 1 Dissipation Shield is that I actually do have that much of a need to play defense.
- Spine Carapace is amazing. Since this deck draws out the game as much as it does, there really is time to let the poison damage kill the opponent's creatures. (I'm even experimenting with running a second copy.) And of course, that damage reduction has proven to be a lifesaver on multiple occasions.
- Similarly, Plague is surprisingly effective. It's a bit of a metagame choice, actually -- since I'm not running Otyugh, the fact that so many creatures are simply too big to be killed by Fire Storm means that Plague can often be the better choice.
- Protect Artifact can be used on the Quantum Towers if the opponent is running Poseidon and/or Quicksand, but otherwise, the Protect Artifacts are primarily used for Hourglass, Shard, or the second weapon.
- Both weapons are important, but Eternity more so. Never animate Eternity without making it immortal (unless you can be absolutely sure nothing will happen to it), and it's often a good idea to use one of the Protect Artifacts for it.
- Don't forget that you can Nymph the opponent's pillars, too. Every once in a while, I'll purposely Nymph an opponent's pillar so that I can then Antimatter it (and, if the circumstances allow, Liquid Shadow it and/or Adrenaline it).
- Nymphing a Quantum Tower usually only happens if I'm desperate or if I've Nymphed all of my colored pillars and have a good stock of quanta. The colored Towers are there to become Nymphs, the Quantum Towers are there to fuel stuff.
- Beware of Fire Buckler and Spine Carapace. Since they can affect, and eventually kill, even immortal creatures, they're a major danger here.

Well, I think that mostly covers it. I'll continue to test and tweak, and I welcome further constructive feedback.

 

anything
blarg: