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shteev

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Looking for advice on a creatureless FG deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18989.msg242200#msg242200
« on: January 07, 2011, 04:10:53 am »
This is my first attempt at building my own rainbow FG deck, after a lot of practice with both ScaredGirl's FG Killer and CCYB. I'm looking for general advice from more experienced Elements players than me to see if I can't improve it's win percentage!

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There's 3 basic ideas going on here:

1) It's an entirely creatureless deck, rendering my opponent's anti-creature measures useless (at least in the early to mid game). Sadly, this makes it very, very slow, but so long as I'm enjoying playing it, I'm not too bothered.

2) Fire  Buckler/Spine Carapace: As far as I know, the only way to kill immortal creatures in the game? The original idea was that they could kill EVERYTHING. Obviously, in practice, they aren't quite that good (how gutted was I when I discovered that multiple Scarabs don't all fall over to Fire Buckler the turn they come into play?), but they're still pretty effective.

3) Eternity+Mindgate: I love this combo so much. They're both great cards on their own, of course, but when they get together to put your opponent's best creature on top of his library so you can create one or more copies of it, it's awesomely powerful. I can use the copied creatures to avoid decking out, but I've found that I rarely need to; by the time I'm running out of cards in my deck, Mindgate is constantly drawing me copies of my opponent's best creature.

Offline Ryli

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Re: Looking for advice on a creatureless FG deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18989.msg242494#msg242494
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2011, 04:59:53 pm »
This is more a matter of personal preference, but if you leave your Spine Carapace unupped, it can kill off 1 attack creatures with annoying abilities. This can be useful against things like leaf dragon, gravity nymph, ray of light, etc.

shteev

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Re: Looking for advice on a creatureless FG deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18989.msg242526#msg242526
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2011, 06:23:19 pm »
This is more a matter of personal preference, but if you leave your Spine Carapace unupped, it can kill off 1 attack creatures with annoying abilities. This can be useful against things like leaf dragon, gravity nymph, ray of light, etc.
Interesting. Gravity nymph, in particular, has given me some problems against Dark Matter, since I ran out of time mana and decked myself out; although I think with some more practice I can beat this problem since it's a 1/4 and I can copy one of his 0/5 otyughs.

<edit> After some practice, tho, this doesn't seem like a modification that would help against Dark Matter. Dark Matter wins a lot of games with just endless black holes right from the start, for one thing; and his Archangles can keep that Nymph alive long enough for the game to be unrecoverable. 7 mana for a spine carapace is very, very difficult to reach in this match.

I can't think of any other 1 power creatures that this deck has a problem with.

zse

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Re: Looking for advice on a creatureless FG deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18989.msg242559#msg242559
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2011, 07:27:42 pm »
This is more a matter of personal preference, but if you leave your Spine Carapace unupped, it can kill off 1 attack creatures with annoying abilities. This can be useful against things like leaf dragon, gravity nymph, ray of light, etc.
Using Thorn Carapace has it's own perks, but that has no synergy with Aflatoxin, which works perfectly with Eternity.
Strategy would be:
- setup to survive FG initial rush -
1 Play any life saving cards you get.
2 Fill AI field with Malignant Cells.
3 Play your combo cards (Eternity & Mindgate).
4 Rewind Malignant Cell to make room for FG to play better creature.
- final -
5 Rewind that better creature and Mindgate it.
6 Repeat 5?
7 ???
8 Profit!

funplay

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Re: Looking for advice on a creatureless FG deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18989.msg242573#msg242573
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2011, 07:46:04 pm »
Dont really know if i qualify as more experienced...but ill try anyway  :))

Take out :fire Buclers for Permafrost and Jade/Mirror Shield with Aflatoxin.
I agree on the 2 times Permafrost and 1 Jade shield....these 3 shields keep you alive for quite some time. Im not a fan of Aflatoxin, but i know quite some people love it...furthermore aflatoxin will ruin that "rewind creature again and again to copy it" as the field will be filled with cells... ups..just saw the lastest post...maybe aflatoxin IS the right card for this deck^^

Fire Storm and Steal are rarely advantageous, those can be taken out.
While i do agree that an single Firestorm is not THAT useful against most false gods, this brings up a critical topic: Control. If the shields are changed, the deck has absoulutely no hard creature control PLUS it lacks the ability of heavy hitters of its own...dangerous imho...

Furthermore, the steal is the only PC in this deck...i wouldnt go against FGs without either good CC or good PC...

2 Antimatters and 1 Mindgate are usually enough.
Not sure about this, either. Espcially the mindgate seems to me to crucial for the "fun combo"

Couple of Hourglasses works every :time.
I sign this!  :D

Well, how to improve this...?

I just came to the conclusion for my own FG-deck, that the PA is near useless...most quite beatable gods have limited amounts of PC and for them you can use hourglasses as bait..but i understand that you really need to keep your eternity...tough decision^^ you might try some games with:

+3 hourglass, - 1 PA and see how it works out...you might have to change the mark to  :time, to power those hourglasses...dont know how much that might weaken your combo^^

Another idea could be to strengthen to stall aspects...

Maybe sundials and/or dim shields could help to survive longer and to setup your combo...but dim shields would use your precious  :aether quanta, weakening mindgate/eternity combo again...

You could also try animate weapon, to actually have 2 eternities on board...for a complete lockdown...but flying eternity without protection would be fragile^^ i having your own "creature" (flying eternity) might not fit your theme...

I have a really hard time looking for improvements while sticking to your themes^^

Two things would really helpful to know:
1) Which of your three main ideas simply HAS to stay? All of them? Or might be 1 enough?
2) You know your deck best...what are its main problems? Are you looking for a improvement against certain gods or specific weaknesses?

So far...my two cents...

Offline Ryli

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Re: Looking for advice on a creatureless FG deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18989.msg242622#msg242622
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2011, 08:35:12 pm »
This is more a matter of personal preference, but if you leave your Spine Carapace unupped, it can kill off 1 attack creatures with annoying abilities. This can be useful against things like leaf dragon, gravity nymph, ray of light, etc.
Using Thorn Carapace has it's own perks, but that has no synergy with Aflatoxin, which works perfectly with Eternity.
The original deck makes no use of aflatoxin, which is why I made the suggestion. If an aflatoxin were added in it would make sense to make use of the upgraded version, otherwise it doesn't matter as much.

shteev

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Re: Looking for advice on a creatureless FG deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18989.msg242713#msg242713
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2011, 10:49:24 pm »
Thanks for your comments so far!

Two things would really helpful to know:
1) Which of your three main ideas simply HAS to stay? All of them? Or might be 1 enough?
TBH I'd be willing to let any of them slide, so long as the deck is still recognisably this deck. The central theme of the deck, I suppose, is that there are only 2 'aggressive' cards, i.e. cards that let you deal damage to win the game: Mindgate and Eternity. The rest of the deck is committed to stalling out. The mindgate/eternity combo are pretty important to the feel of the deck, but I'd also like to see how a creatureless deck could win without them. Come to think of it, I'd like to see any other creatureless decks at all, and any of you could post a link or two :)

Spine carapace was the card that lead me to create the deck in the first place, but frankly it's more of a means to an end than a vital component at the core of this deck. In fact, I'm debating with myself at the moment whether fire buckler is just better :) Getting creature control on the table as soon as possible is important and 7 mana is a lot. I'll admit that I haven't tested permafrost shield in this deck, at least since I've become proficient with it, but I'd be concerned that it doesn't stall hard enough... CCYB gets away with playing it because CCYB wins in the mid game, not the late game.

Aflatoxin seems like a great addition to the deck but I haven't started testing it yet. I'd like get some ideas based around this deck as it stands at the moment rather than ideas based around Aflatoxin.

Oh, and I do realise there's not much room in the deck for alterations, but feel free to make it bigger! It's only the size that it is at the moment to improve it's chances of drawing key cards like shards and Antimatters. Hourglasses somehow got left by the wayside during testing, but it's probably time to try them out again. (What happened was that I found myself aggressively using Eternity from very early on in the game, so I switched to using Mindgate as my primary source of card advantage).


2) You know your deck best...what are its main problems? Are you looking for a improvement against certain gods or specific weaknesses?
FOREST SPECTRE!!! Goddamn it I hate that guy :)  Had to get that off my chest.


My deck has mostly the same matchups as many other rainbow decks.

The Osiris match could also use a boost, I'm losing that one a bit too often. On a related note: how come when I poison one of his scarabs with the carapace, and then HE eats that scarab with one of HIS other scarabs, that *I* get poisoned? Is that fair?

Dark Matter isn't so bad unless he gets archangels out undoing Fire Buckler damage... that definately a match I need Spine Carapace for.

Incarnate surprisingly gives me some grief, boneyards spit out a hell of a lot of skeletons, and they deal a good amount of damage.


These are the gods I'm just not beating at the moment:

Rainbow - Surprisingly I can sometimes stall out against Rainbow for some time, so I guess it's possible that match could be improved. Aside from those evil Forest Spectres, Rainbow's creatures are pretty easy to hold off.

Divine Glory - There's nothing to rewind here, so I think this match is a dead loss. If I Mindgate a Glory I can kill him in 25 turns... to cut that down I need another Glory AND an Animate Weapon. Doesn't seem very likely. Does he play with Miracle? I'm not sure. I'm boned if he does.

Graviton - How evil are those firemasters? How do decks beat this guy at all??

Hermes - And this guy, too??

Obliterator - I think I get the worst draws from Mindgates off this guy than anyone else.

Eternal Phoenix - My creature control is worthless. I guess with all those 4/1s on the table tho some good shields might help me to stall out. Permafrost seems like it might be worth testing (and might help the Osiris match as well?)


And that's currently as far as my playtesting info goes...

Offline Ryli

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Re: Looking for advice on a creatureless FG deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18989.msg242750#msg242750
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2011, 12:06:57 am »
I'm not too skilled in the art of creatureless decks, but aflatoxin will go a long way here, with your Spine carapace, because it deals with creature spam by filling their board. And switching out some towers for Supernovas would probably ramp up your setup speed a bit. You'll still find that some of your unbeaten gods on your list will stay that way though, as long as you play this strategy.

funplay

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Re: Looking for advice on a creatureless FG deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18989.msg242753#msg242753
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2011, 12:09:51 am »
Looking at the list of Gods that beat you, it will be pretty hard to improve your deck...most of them are simply really >:D

Concerning creatureless decks: you know the Antimatter/Liquid Shadow build? It should actually work quite well against of your best buddies, Rainbow ;) From the Oracle-Rainbow Thread:

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Im still somehow on that "Animate Weapon" trip...cause an Electrocutor would solve your problems with these evil forest spectres^^ And animate it to make room for eternity...though im afraid this is more a fun idea then actually efficient^^

Concerning CCYB: I must really play this deck the wrong way...most of the time i need about 20+ turns to win...and thats not mid game for me^^

Concerning Osiris/Poison: Im pretty sure he didnt eat that scarab...he threw it (using catapult)! And that poisoned you ;)

Against Eternal Phoenix, Jade shield is probably even more useful, as he will probably explode a permafrost unless you have hourglasses for bait...but anyway a hard match even with^^

I assume you already tried using  :time mark?

shteev

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Re: Looking for advice on a creatureless FG deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18989.msg242786#msg242786
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2011, 01:07:24 am »
Dont really know if i qualify as more experienced...but ill try anyway  :))
2 Antimatters and 1 Mindgate are usually enough.
Not sure about this, either. Espcially the mindgate seems to me to crucial for the "fun combo"
"Fun combo"? Do you not think this two card combo is a genuinely powerful strategy? I do. I'm not saying that this is the most powerful deck that can be built with the combo in it, of course :)

funplay

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Re: Looking for advice on a creatureless FG deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18989.msg242882#msg242882
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2011, 03:44:37 am »
sorry for that sloppy wording.

I simply picked the word "fun" as you said in your OP that this combo is the most fun in your deck. ;D

Concerning the "power" of that combo...definitely a nice one, i can accept that easily. though i havent tried it, yet...

shteev

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Re: Looking for advice on a creatureless FG deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18989.msg243401#msg243401
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2011, 08:37:13 pm »
Here's the build I'm testing at the moment. This build is 25 wins to 23 losses... I don't know how that whole Elements Statistic website works yet, but it's the next thing I'll be looking into. I'm off the trainer now as well and playing at http://www.elementsthegame.com/. I can't tell you how cool it is to be winning cards with a deck of my own design :)

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Thanks for the advice, as you can see I've taken quite a lot of it!

Firestorm, Improved Steal and PA have gone.

Aflatoxin seems like a great addition to the deck, I've won games against particular FGs like Decay and Obliterator that I don't think I would have won otherwise. It also gives me a malignant cell to bounce when playing Octane... hard to say if the matchup is improved tho since he has Explosions for killing Eternitys anyway.

Permafrost shield is also good, and much better at stalling if you have a bunch of Shards in play than I gave it credit for before I tested it.

Neither of these additions sadly seems to help me out much against Osiris, since he has a habit of catapulting frozen creatures and malignant cells at my face. Oh well. I was also hoping that permafrost shield might make a difference VS Eternal Phoenix, but I haven't played him yet.

I only put one Hourglass in because I wanted to keep the deck lean and mean. It's there for playtest purposes, and when I'm done playtesting one I'll try two. It seems ok, even tho it can only draw a few cards sometimes due to the small size of the deck, it probably helps.

Mark is now Time. God alone knows why I made it Aether. It's far more important to use the Eternitys for card advantage by rewinding constantly at the beginning of the game than it is to use Mindgates to draw Stone Pillars (and, of course, I'm starting to use Hourglasses now too).

With Improved Steal gone I'm completely lacking in permanent control, but rather than just throw a Pulverizer into the build, I decided to see how it plays out, and so far it's doing surprisingly ok. Pulverizer might make it into a later version, of course.

 

anything
blarg: