Looking for a way to overshadow dimshields

[Submachine]

While I was trying to balance my blue nymph deck to have more defense, i started wondering whether wings can be more useful than fogs or vica versa. As wings can block damage for 2 more turn than a simple dimensional shield, I tried to make use of them in a deck that chains wings effectively. Aether seemed a better choice than death for the spiders, so I started with that. At first i didn't want anything to pass the wings, so I added lobotomizer to get rid of momentum, maxwells, pharaohs and otyughs. Since the damage was slow and DR shields made it even slower, i added dragons and fractals too for burst damage. This is the second version that I came to:

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5oc 5oc 5of 5of 5of 5of 5oo 5oo 5oo 5oo 5oo 5oo 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 61u 61u 620 620 620 620 620 620 622 622 622 622 8pu

However, this deck became a tad bit fat, so the combos are usually late and I'm even worrying about the quanta balance, because I don't really know how to balance the quanta in decks that use fractal (as the fractal's aether-consuming ability and the fractalled creatures' extra cost cannot be fit in the QI theory).

The goals are:

• Slim the deck as much as possible while keeping the strategy
• Faster damage output

I also tried making an duo, and managed to make this compact deck here.

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52j 52j 52j 52j 52j 52j 52o 52o 52o 52o 52o 52o 52q 52q 5oo 5oo 5oo 5oo 5oo 5oo 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 8pk

This one is quite faster and is possible to start chaining Wings even on the second turn without needing to break the chain. Moreover, flesh spiders are more durable than phase spiders, and the decrease in their damage is compensated by ramping poison damage on the opponent.

[iancudorinmarian]

I have an idea: Why use fractal for burst damage when you could use PU? You can even copy opponent's creatures for that. I'll try to build a deck like that and edit this reply.

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EDIT: Never mind, with this quantum generation, in a few test games I had more than enough quantum for fractals. (switched PU with fractal in the above deck)

[UndeadSpider1990]

Nicely presented post.

I'm drawn towards the duo as the stronger combination, as I feel poison presents a better offense than Dragons/Fractal Spiders (particularly vs Dim Shields). I feel your version could do -1 Wings. After all, you'll only have 23 turns to end the game after your starting hand; after Turn 3, just 4 Wings is enough to last until deckout—but you can reasonably expect to end the game in 15 turns, meaning you have wings to backup against 2 Steal/Deflagrations.

Again in the death version, I feel you could use some CC. Maybe Plague or Thunderstorm to control airborne swarms? There's also momentum to worry about, but I worry Shockwave's 4 damage will not be enough for many creatures.

Fractal-Spiders sounds pretty slow. As an attempt to overshadow Dim Shields, you can't hope to equal the impervious offense that immortal creatures provide—another reason why I think poison is the better option. I'd consider using more Dragons, some Lightning for CC, and forget Fractal. But these are just my thoughts right now. I'll have a play and get back to you.

[Higurashi]

Wings have a big flaw in that you'll always take that initial hit from a Dragon or other. If several of them pop up at the same time as they tend to in Arena or against PU/Fractal, you're toast. As such, Wings need healing to bring out their full potential. Since Light doesn't have Web, people often either turn to rainbows or they pack lots of CC in addition to Wings and healing.

That said, Aether+Air and Death+Air builds like these are classics and can be faced in 1.4.

[UndeadSpider1990]

I tried and duos with limited success. Whichever one you choose, you're forced to give a very important role to just 6 fragile creatures. In the end I decided to settle for less than 100% effectiveness of Wings, and made one of these:

Spoiler for Fire:

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5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f7 5f7 5f7 5f7 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5oo 5oo 5oo 5oo 5oo 8pr

Shoot down the biggest fliers, and never mind the rest!

Here are my other attempts:

Spoiler for Death:

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52j 52j 52j 52j 52j 52o 52o 52q 52q 542 542 542 542 542 542 542 542 542 542 542 542 542 542 5of 5of 5oo 5oo 5oo 5oo 5oo 8pr

Spoiler for Air:

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[Submachine]

First of all, thanks for all the ideas.

Spoiler for Hidden:

I have an idea: Why use fractal for burst damage when you could use PU? You can even copy opponent's creatures for that. I'll try to build a deck like that and edit this reply.

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5of 5of 5oo 5oo 5oo 5oo 5oo 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 5pu 61u 61u 620 620 620 620 620 620 622 622 622 8pu

EDIT: Never mind, with this quantum generation, in a few test games I had more than enough quantum for fractals. (switched PU with fractal in the above deck)

I tried your version with PUs, but I kept 1 fractal in case of mass CC and constant healing. It felt like it needs one more dragon, and I also found quanta production a bit slow. I added 1 dragon and took out a spider, because if I took out anything else, it would have broken the consistency. This way it will still be possible to get that 6th spider by PU-ing another on the field. About quanta balance, I think that changing 1-2 air pendulums to air pillars might make dragons faster. Anyway, I tested this version:

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Unfortunately nearly all my opponents had steal, phase dragon or early CC, so I'll try it again later with mixing air pillars into the deck.

Spoiler for Hidden:

Nicely presented post.

I'm drawn towards the duo as the stronger combination, as I feel poison presents a better offense than Dragons/Fractal Spiders (particularly vs Dim Shields). I feel your version could do -1 Wings. After all, you'll only have 23 turns to end the game after your starting hand; after Turn 3, just 4 Wings is enough to last until deckout—but you can reasonably expect to end the game in 15 turns, meaning you have wings to backup against 2 Steal/Deflagrations.

Again in the death version, I feel you could use some CC. Maybe Plague or Thunderstorm to control airborne swarms? There's also momentum to worry about, but I worry Shockwave's 4 damage will not be enough for many creatures.

Fractal-Spiders sounds pretty slow. As an attempt to overshadow Dim Shields, you can't hope to equal the impervious offense that immortal creatures provide—another reason why I think poison is the better option. I'd consider using more Dragons, some Lightning for CC, and forget Fractal. But these are just my thoughts right now. I'll have a play and get back to you.

I'll follow your thoughts and will also try out an duo without fractals or PUs just to see how it works. However, it is true what you said in your second post about being forced to give a very important role to 6 fragile creatures, so I'll try working around with Quintessence. So I'll just swap the fractals to quints basically.

Spoiler for Hidden:

I tried and duos with limited success. Whichever one you choose, you're forced to give a very important role to just 6 fragile creatures. In the end I decided to settle for less than 100% effectiveness of Wings, and made one of these:

Spoiler for Fire:

Hover over cards for details, click for permalink

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5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f7 5f7 5f7 5f7 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5oo 5oo 5oo 5oo 5oo 8pr

Shoot down the biggest fliers, and never mind the rest!

Here are my other attempts:

Spoiler for Death:

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52j 52j 52j 52j 52j 52o 52o 52q 52q 542 542 542 542 542 542 542 542 542 542 542 542 542 542 5of 5of 5oo 5oo 5oo 5oo 5oo 8pr

Spoiler for Air:

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After my testings I feel like that I prefer 6 wings even in 30-card decks, not just because of PC but also to get 2 early with higher probability. Anyway, your firestall is an interesting idea, I'll try out adding 1-2 blue nymphs. However, if we combine Wings with anything else than aether or death, dimshields become quite competitive as we leave the main line. But still, i will test my ideas on that one too.

Spoiler for Hidden:

Wings have a big flaw in that you'll always take that initial hit from a Dragon or other. If several of them pop up at the same time as they tend to in Arena or against PU/Fractal, you're toast. As such, Wings need healing to bring out their full potential. Since Light doesn't have Web, people often either turn to rainbows or they pack lots of CC in addition to Wings and healing.

That said, Aether+Air and Death+Air builds like these are classics and can be faced in 1.4.

Indeed, that initial 10 damage from a dragon can hurt a lot so I usually start chaining my Wings if I suspect dragons and my HP is lower than 80. That's also why I usually prefer 6 Wings even in a 30-card deck. However, I didn't even think of a rainbow approach. It will be hard to build a working and balanced wingsbow, so I'll post my first version here for more discussion.

[timetock]

Doesn't mutation remove airborne?

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edit: seems like this deck doesn't even need pends

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-1 pillar +1 dragon

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[CrockettRocket]

Well, I've made a wingsbow upped deck, but I notice this is all unupped decks. Should I post it or not?

[Submachine]

Doesn't mutation remove airborne?

Well not directly. It can even turn a creature into an airborne mutant, or something with steal or even paradox. ^^" However if it kills the target or turns it into an abomination, it won't be airborne anymore.

Well, I've made a wingsbow upped deck, but I notice this is all unupped decks. Should I post it or not?

Sure, it's the same topic. I'll try converting it to unupped if I see that possible.

[timetock]

Doesn't mutation remove airborne?

Well not directly. It can even turn a creature into an airborne mutant, or something with steal or even paradox. ^^" However if it kills the target or turns it into an abomination, it won't be airborne anymore.

Yea abomination is what I meant. IMO 2 is a lot cheaper than getting a lobo out or even firebolting. Or spiders. I've noticed with sky blitz and 5 dragons games end rather quickly for spiders and lobos to be truly effective. Maybe with a fatter deck... But with a fatter deck you could add in pends and antimatters for the combo.

[CrockettRocket]

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Nightmare being unupped or upped wont effect the deck at all. Sn will give 2 no matter what and nightmare is our only darkness quanta usage.

Been meaning to post this for a little while. So I'll make a new thread for it and edit this post to link to the thread.

EDIT: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/rainbow-decks/spiders-on-wings-%28don%27t-they-have-webs-to-get-into-the-air%29/msg1125535/#msg1125535

[Submachine]

I tried to distribute rushes and stalls from each other and made these 2 experimental decks:

Rush

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Stall

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Plus I tried to make a bow, but it's just terrible.

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I did tests too, but they were soo long time ago, that I forgot what were the results. ^^" However, I feel that the best version so far is the death-air vesion in the OP.