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Offline vrt

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Re: AI5 turns to win, lets talk about it. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18868.msg240580#msg240580
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2011, 10:36:08 pm »
I'd say test 3 somewhat efficient decks for a large number of games (hi willng3), see how much it nets you, and that way, see whether or not it's viable to do it. I mean, they did have an upped card drop increase..
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Offline willng3

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Re: AI5 turns to win, lets talk about it. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18868.msg240582#msg240582
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2011, 10:38:52 pm »
I might say that, for AI5, time to win is more important than turns to win.
Time to win is directly related to turns to win.  Since people tend to...doze off, eat, get distracted by the TV, or think too much during a duel, Turns to Win is a much better way of giving estimates of speed for a deck.  Under normal circumstances you can safely say that the faster the deck can win, the less time it will take you to win a duel.
Thats both true and not.  When two decks have the same ttw, the win time becomes very important.  Win time is the stat that a grinder will look at most closely. i.e. what deck gets me to upgraded cards the quickest.

Speaking of upped cards, keeping a tally of upped cards won is an absolute must to the success of this study.  With any luck we can determine the average games to upped card, which will be huge in the viability of grinding AI5.
That adds another issue entirely.  We've never done spins for AI3 TTWing; doing so for this would make Electrum per minute much more complicated to obtain.

I might say that, for AI5, time to win is more important than turns to win.
Time to win is directly related to turns to win.  Since people tend to...doze off, eat, get distracted by the TV, or think too much during a duel, Turns to Win is a much better way of giving estimates of speed for a deck.  Under normal circumstances you can safely say that the faster the deck can win, the less time it will take you to win a duel.
That might be true for "easy decks", but compare playing 1 turn with 'mutation :rainbow with 23 creatures doing all sorts of tricks and stuff' vs. merely using Eternity lock to stall AI.
Uh yes, but I don't think that a mutation :rainbow is going to ever be the most efficient AI5 grinder there is.  When it comes to rushing, or winning quickly, simpler is better.

I'm well aware that time spent on a game is the most important, but I didn't say it wasn't effective, I said it would lead to inconsistencies because compared to simply winning games, there is much more room for error when actually timing yourself for optimal speed.

And I believe we already had a discussion about doing real time versus in game time during the first TTW Study already, so I don't understand exactly why there's such a problem with doing it the same way now just because the possibility of winning upped cards comes into play.  I'm fine with doing a study in terms of time, just don't refer to it as a "TTW" study in that case.

So for this study we must include spins also? Won't that throw off the electrum gained per game/ total? I guess we need to start making a tally for the +5 in spins for AI5 when it comes 'round.
No, just note somewhere how many upped cards you winalong the course of 100 games.  The fact that you can win upped cards from AI5 while potentially using a deck good for AI3/T50 can completely change the way people play if we find it lucrative and possible.  People will not be bound to play the fg and can use the deck they make for AI3 to play AI5 as well.

All this assumes we find a rush that is actually good versus AI5 which may or may not happen.
Actually no, there's a much simpler way to calculate electrum gained without screwing up the estimate in the process.  All you would need to do is use:  Score gained + [~5 * # of EMs] to get your electrum earned.  While it's more time consuming than the method we have now, it works.

~ = The difference between score and electrum when an EM game is won.  While I believe this number is 5 no matter what AI is played, I can't be too sure.
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QuantumT

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Re: AI5 turns to win, lets talk about it. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18868.msg240583#msg240583
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2011, 10:38:52 pm »
Fire stall might be a good candidate. Most of the time it seems to win somewhere in the 12-15 turn range.

LongDono

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Re: AI5 turns to win, lets talk about it. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18868.msg240585#msg240585
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2011, 10:40:55 pm »
From what Jmdt said he wants to find an Ai3/Top50 grinder that can handle halfbloods right? I think we should start with unupped decks first, and whatever rares you like because they already have Top 50 down but now they want to get Ai5.
Lets start a list
Fire fly queen
Shriker rush
Lava golem rush
fire stall
Poison rush? ( maybe but I doubt it. )
Should we test these unupped first and see if we even get close? ( After we figure out how we should go about testing it. )

QuantumT

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Re: AI5 turns to win, lets talk about it. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18868.msg240588#msg240588
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2011, 10:43:51 pm »
I don't think an unupped rush will be able to do it. An upped one is barely able to push through enough damage before dying usually, and taking away both speed and damage will likely take that away.

grindpower

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Re: AI5 turns to win, lets talk about it. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18868.msg240590#msg240590
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2011, 10:44:36 pm »
I made a thread right after this was made. Then a while after I saw this thread.
This is my thread: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,18869.0.html

I am providing ttw with the decks so perhaps it could be a ttw study for AI5?

grindpower

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Re: AI5 turns to win, lets talk about it. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18868.msg240594#msg240594
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2011, 10:46:03 pm »
I might also mention that Shrieker Rush has outrushed a few HB's. I tried it myself as an accident when I missed T50 and clicked HB. It won me a few games but it is not efficient and not reccomended for HB's.

Offline jmdtTopic starter

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Re: AI5 turns to win, lets talk about it. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18868.msg240609#msg240609
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2011, 10:57:59 pm »
I don't think an unupped rush will be able to do it. An upped one is barely able to push through enough damage before dying usually, and taking away both speed and damage will likely take that away.
Yeah, you really need upped decks to attempt to rush a halfblood.  Even then, it only works 75-80% of the time.   Maybe the community will come up with something.

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Re: AI5 turns to win, lets talk about it. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18868.msg240615#msg240615
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2011, 11:02:48 pm »
I might get some preliminary stats when I get time for it, but I've been trying this:
Code: [Select]
714 714 71b 71b 71b 71b 809 809 809 809 809 809 80i 80i 80i 80i 81q 81q 81q 81q 81q 81q 81q 81q 81q 81q 81q 81q 81q 81qWorked really well so far for me, might need tweaking (plague?) though, so suggestions are welcome :)

Edit: as usual, whenever I try to test a deck it begins failing epicly, lol.

Offline jmdtTopic starter

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Re: AI5 turns to win, lets talk about it. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18868.msg240638#msg240638
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2011, 11:38:36 pm »
Edit: as usual, whenever I try to test a deck it begins failing epicly, lol.
Lots of losses are going to happen, lol.  We need to find what's acceptable, lol.

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Re: AI5 turns to win, lets talk about it. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18868.msg240654#msg240654
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2011, 12:02:00 am »
Would trainer be good for testing purposes for this, or is the trainer ai messed up with cards they shouldnt have and the like
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Offline willng3

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Re: AI5 turns to win, lets talk about it. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18868.msg240657#msg240657
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2011, 12:05:41 am »
Would trainer be good for testing purposes for this, or is the trainer ai messed up with cards they shouldnt have and the like
Well, it's 100% the same in terms of difficulty, but zanz said that AI5 now has 30% more upped cards.  So if we're including upped cards in this then I'm not sure if the Trainer has been updated with that as well.
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