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Re: New Card: Gargoyle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6163.msg68096#msg68096
« Reply #72 on: May 13, 2010, 01:58:35 pm »
If anyone actually cares, I messed around with Gargoyle in my little excel sheet thingy and found its actually a valuable creature for the price, at least after its ability is used.  Before that its only average, but after you've suddenly gotten a good bit of more security for your critter.
What's your excel sheet thingy?

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Re: New Card: Gargoyle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6163.msg68154#msg68154
« Reply #73 on: May 13, 2010, 04:20:02 pm »
Good card, but not the thing the game needs right now.

It is yet another multicolor card (I don't think it's something you'd want to play without having access to the ability, 5/3 for 5 without an ability is nothing interesting, darkness has better cards than that.).

The problem with this is, even 12 different elements are too much, basically, every single element card you make can only be used in only 8,33% of mono decks and 16,66% of dual decks. (meaning you need to make a lot more cards than necessary for other card games)
Then we have 66 different dual element combination, and every dual card can only be used at 0% of mono-color, and only 1.5% of dual decks, the one that happens to use the exact same two colors needed. Triple or Quadruple element deck, especially without dual or triple pillars, are quite unstable, and playing them is rarely a good idea.

When the game is in desperate need of a large number of more cards, seeing the only new card in development is a card that can be reasonably used in like 2% of existing non-rainbow decks is disappointing.

Also cards like this that use two or more elements will only strengthen rainbow, while giving nothing to mono-color, and only useful for one out of the 66 different dual-color decks. Even if I consider triple-color decks,  the ratio isn't that much better, only 10 out of 220, 4.5% total...

You should focus on colorless, and mono-color cards until there are at least 1000 different cards in the game, and then you can make multicolor ones. Otherwise, it will remain a game where rainbow is the most played deck.

Offline Terroking

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Re: New Card: Gargoyle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6163.msg68247#msg68247
« Reply #74 on: May 13, 2010, 07:36:39 pm »
Good card, but not the thing the game needs right now.

It is yet another multicolor card (I don't think it's something you'd want to play without having access to the ability, 5/3 for 5 without an ability is nothing interesting, darkness has better cards than that.).

The problem with this is, even 12 different elements are too much, basically, every single element card you make can only be used in only 8,33% of mono decks and 16,66% of dual decks. (meaning you need to make a lot more cards than necessary for other card games)
Then we have 66 different dual element combination, and every dual card can only be used at 0% of mono-color, and only 1.5% of dual decks, the one that happens to use the exact same two colors needed. Triple or Quadruple element deck, especially without dual or triple pillars, are quite unstable, and playing them is rarely a good idea.

When the game is in desperate need of a large number of more cards, seeing the only new card in development is a card that can be reasonably used in like 2% of existing non-rainbow decks is disappointing.

Also cards like this that use two or more elements will only strengthen rainbow, while giving nothing to mono-color, and only useful for one out of the 66 different dual-color decks. Even if I consider triple-color decks,  the ratio isn't that much better, only 10 out of 220, 4.5% total...

You should focus on colorless, and mono-color cards until there are at least 1000 different cards in the game, and then you can make multicolor ones. Otherwise, it will remain a game where rainbow is the most played deck.
That's just... ridiculous.

You'd rather have there be only 13 different types of decks?

Mono-decks are good, but they aren't the point. Most cards synergize best with cards in other elements, leading to new decks and new combinations. If Darkness cards were only useful to a mono-darkness deck, then why play any deck involving darkness which isn't mono?

This doesn't strengthen mono, but it certainly doesn't strengthen Rainbow. As is, this card isn't even viable for Speed Rainbow (Unless it gets at least 7 attack for it's upgrade) due to having the same cost as Vampire (Again, the upgrade might be better, but I'm assuming it's not) and creating less of a life gap.

Duo decks are the biggest part of the game, and there are much more functional duo decks than mono and trio put together. Rainbows are all based off the same concept, and really only have 3 categories, control, speed, and a mix of both.

Look at Devourers. Do Darkness decks find them useful? Yes. Do Earth/Darkness decks find them useful? Another yes. Do they work in a Darkness/Earth deck? Yes #3.

Since this is the unupped version, I'd say the most comparable card is the minor vampire, which deals a measly 2 damage with a life gap of 4, 3 damage and 6 with Nightfall, so the gap is the same with Nightfall.

Contrary to what I said before, I might actually like this card in my speed rainbow, after thinking that +2/-2 with +1 cost wouldn't be all that OP.
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Re: New Card: Gargoyle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6163.msg68432#msg68432
« Reply #75 on: May 14, 2010, 01:16:22 am »
besides using it as say a gravity pull whore what other use does it have?

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Re: New Card: Gargoyle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6163.msg68433#msg68433
« Reply #76 on: May 14, 2010, 01:19:10 am »
how does this help darkness or most decks at all?
More stallin'. Liquid Shadow. Rage Potion.
As well as damage in general. 5 for 5 :darkness is Abomination level.

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Re: New Card: Gargoyle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6163.msg68438#msg68438
« Reply #77 on: May 14, 2010, 01:27:28 am »
liquid shadow this and you have 20+ turns of healing.

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Re: New Card: Gargoyle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6163.msg68449#msg68449
« Reply #78 on: May 14, 2010, 01:53:21 am »
how does this help darkness or most decks at all?
More stallin'. Liquid Shadow. Rage Potion.
As well as damage in general. 5 for 5 :darkness is Abomination level.
Yep. 5 damage, while not overly powerful, isn't something to sneeze at.
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Re: New Card: Gargoyle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6163.msg68587#msg68587
« Reply #79 on: May 14, 2010, 12:08:58 pm »
Quote
That's just... ridiculous.

You'd rather have there be only 13 different types of decks?

Mono-decks are good, but they aren't the point. Most cards synergize best with cards in other elements, leading to new decks and new combinations. If Darkness cards were only useful to a mono-darkness deck, then why play any deck involving darkness which isn't mono?
No.
What actually is ridiculous is having less than 10 cards to choose from for mono decks.
Until that has been dealt with, making cards that are only playable if a specific two elements out of 12 are played, will only strengthen rainbow, which is already way too widely played, exactly because the best cards need two elements to work.
My problem is not that this card is useful for darkness-earth, my problem is that this card is completely useless to anything else.
A mono-darkness card would be useful in mono-darkness, in addition to darkness+earth, darkness+time, darkness+aether, darkness+anything else. It would be useful for 14 different decks, instead of just two (dark+earth and rainbow, which has better cards anyway so won't use it).

Is an 5/3 creature for 5 quanta considered good? No. Life has those for 2 or 3, I think... Playable? Not really, dragons are better. Quanta carries over to next turn anyway, so playing one 10 atk dragon instead of two 5 atk gargoyles is superior is nearly all cases, because it costs less cards, has more life so is harder to kill, shields can't reduce it twice only once, it is better with liquid shadow, or any other buff spells, etc...

Is there ANY serious deck out there that play abominations? Because this card is the same, except it is easier to kill because it has less life.

If it is a lot better when upgraded, then it might be worth playing in mono-darkness, but at the moment, it isn't known how it will be when upgraded.
Even so, compared to a vampire (4/3 for the same cost, and you gain 4 life per turn), a creature of a similar cost and size, but without an ability, is useless, and this has no ability if you aren't playing earth quanta...
Maybe if the upgraded version is 5/3 for 2 quanta instead of 5...

Quote
Look at Devourers. Do Darkness decks find them useful? Yes. Do Earth/Darkness decks find them useful? Another yes. Do they work in a Darkness/Earth deck? Yes #3.
The major difference here is that
-Devourers have an ability even without burrow, and a pretty powerful one at that
-You almost never want to use the burrow ability anyway
-They generate quanta, so they kinda act as pillar replacements too, making them a lot easier to include than other cards.

Devourer is a nice mono-darkness card, this one isn't. This one is an 5/3 creature without an ability, that isn't something I'd want to include in darkness, which actually happens to have more useful cards than other elements.
What would you prefer in your deck, 6 of these, or 3 dragons that do the same thing for you, and 3 more spaces to add more steals, drain lifes, shards, or pillars?

Quote
Duo decks are the biggest part of the game, and there are much more functional duo decks than mono and trio put together. Rainbows are all based off the same concept, and really only have 3 categories, control, speed, and a mix of both.
They aren't the biggest part because it is intended that way, they are because of the dual color cards. Let's face is, mono-color isn't used because there are not enough cards for it.

Dual color however, is bad because it needs a lot more work on developer side, which is obviously impossible at the moment.
If you'd want to add 10 new cards to every dual color deck combination to select from, you have these choices as a designer :
-Make 660 new dual-color cards, 10 each for every combination.
-Make 120 new mono-color cards, 10 each for every element. This saves you roughly 80% of the work, and these cards also strengthen mono-color decks.
-Make 10 new cards, each of them colorless (other), that can be used in any deck. Of course, this is where you have to be the most careful, as these cards are a major part of the game. Making them powerful (like SoG), will change the game environment drastically.

Now, this card, unless it is a lot stronger when upgraded, falls to the first option, which is an amount of work impossible with only one developer in a reasonable time.

So, mono color, and colorless cards should be the priority...to get the most out of your work.



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Re: New Card: Gargoyle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6163.msg68714#msg68714
« Reply #80 on: May 14, 2010, 06:28:07 pm »
If anyone actually cares, I messed around with Gargoyle in my little excel sheet thingy and found its actually a valuable creature for the price, at least after its ability is used.  Before that its only average, but after you've suddenly gotten a good bit of more security for your critter.
What's your excel sheet thingy?
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,6386.0.html

You'd have to fill in your own formula to calculate the quanta increase and health increase, but its not too complex.

Offline Terroking

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Re: New Card: Gargoyle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6163.msg68761#msg68761
« Reply #81 on: May 14, 2010, 08:08:00 pm »
Sorry, but a Minor Vampire will never be more useful to a Darkness/Earth deck than a Gargoyle will, as the Gargoyle creates more of a life gap. Since this is the unupgraded version, you've got to compare it to Minor Vampire, instead of the upped one.

Really, if you want o go at it like that...

Damselfly is better than Brimstone Eater.

Improved Heal is better than Shard (Blue)

Horned Frog is better than Cockatrice.

If the second cards I stated were upgraded, they'd be on about equal terms.

Each element can only make 2-3 good mono decks, while it can make usually around 6 functional duos.

There are very few cards that can work well with both cards inside their own element as well as outside of it (The best of them probably being Adrenaline, then Fractal), and apparently this is the way Zanz wants it. Which brings me to:

Quote
They aren't the biggest part because it is intended that way, they are because of the dual color cards. Let's face is, mono-color isn't used because there are not enough cards for it.
I seriosly doubt that you know what Zanz is planning and intended when he made this game.

Let's face is, he made and is still making duo color cards, he intends duo decks to be important.
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Re: New Card: Gargoyle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6163.msg68770#msg68770
« Reply #82 on: May 14, 2010, 08:23:40 pm »
I don't find this card that useful at all. It mostly seems a way to use liquid shadow.
To the people considering rage potion/liquid shadow: Armagio has 25 health unupgraded for only one type of quanta. Why does everyone forget about him>

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Re: New Card: Gargoyle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6163.msg68795#msg68795
« Reply #83 on: May 14, 2010, 09:16:27 pm »
If you plan to use liquid shadow you have to use :darkness anyway, so it's a choice between :gravity or :earth, so Armagio being pure mono does not change much. Getting :fire for rage potions is probably no problem if you use immolations as the source of quanta.

Now, Gargoyle has 2 advantages over Armagio. First - it has higher base attack, so even if you don't draw rage potions or immolations early you still start dealing damage. Second - he gets the boost from Eclipse.

Of course Armagio has his own advantages, he is not vulnerable for 1 turn and you can use some of these as meat shields.

Of course this choice affects a few other things. Eg. if you go for :earth you can include quicksands, PA for your dusk mantle or vampire dagger etc.

Gravity offers some other cards like gravity pull, momentum or maybe an otyugh that could support your deck.

Overall I guess :earth has a better synergy with :darkness so I guess that could work better, but It's hard to tell before we see the upgraded version of Gargoyle.
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