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Offline Damage

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Re: LS gargoyles! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39099.msg490228#msg490228
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2012, 08:22:26 pm »
@omega- Yes, that is true, but 3 games is nill statistically.  It is entirely possible that you got 3 bad hands, which would ruin your argument.
@Absol- This isn't fully dedicated.  Only somewhat, and the extra few cards have saved me a few times, and all I need for a good hand is a few pillars, devourers, a gargoyle or two with the same number of LS, and maybe a steal or cloak in there as well, which I usually get.
@Damage- GTFO, I have plenty experience with 40 card decks, and as long as they are constructed decently, they are plenty usable.  Just because a deck has more than 30 cards, does NOT mean it is "not reliable."

 RELIABLE means something different.BETTER DRAWS means something different.You think why all people use 30 carded decks? For better draws.Not for deckouting.By the way,if you rush/stall enough  you will win before the deckout.Not 'AFTER'.Look at the 'ditryconary'
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Offline TIOTopic starter

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Re: LS gargoyles! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39099.msg490253#msg490253
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2012, 09:05:44 pm »
30 cards will get you better first hands.

Secondly dont be tripping on omega. He knows what he is talking about.
I know he knows, but my first hands are plenty good enough to get me through a vast majority of battles.  Not PVP or anything like that.  I just like the style, if somebody could give me an EXAMPLE of an alteration, I would willingly try it out (no more stilettos, the one I have is all I have.)
@Damage-
1.  Maybe explain what you mean, then?  Usually when somebody says a different build is more reliable, they mean it gets better hands and wins more often. 
2.  "You think why all people use 30 carded decks? For better draws.Not for deckouting."  You don't say? /sarcasm  My draws are plenty good as they are.
3.  Who are you quoting?  Also, put spaces after periods, they make your posts easier to read.
I love me some troll decks.
Current original decks:
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,39143.0.html

Offline omegareaper7

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Re: LS gargoyles! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39099.msg490265#msg490265
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2012, 09:15:45 pm »
@omega- Yes, that is true, but 3 games is nill statistically.  It is entirely possible that you got 3 bad hands, which would ruin your argument.

Yes, but seeing as with 10 pillars in a 30 card deck, you average 2 maybe 3 a game, getting an average of two in this deck doesn't seem inaccurate.
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Offline TIOTopic starter

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Re: LS gargoyles! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39099.msg490266#msg490266
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2012, 09:20:29 pm »
Games usually last longer than that...
And devourers are dual-purpose: Quanta generator AND Quanta destroyer.  They can lock down opponent bad hands quickly.  I am willing to test out minor modifications.
I love me some troll decks.
Current original decks:
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,39143.0.html

Offline Damage

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Re: LS gargoyles! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39099.msg490594#msg490594
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2012, 09:40:51 am »
30 cards will get you better first hands.

Secondly dont be tripping on omega. He knows what he is talking about.
I know he knows, but my first hands are plenty good enough to get me through a vast majority of battles.  Not PVP or anything like that.  I just like the style, if somebody could give me an EXAMPLE of an alteration, I would willingly try it out (no more stilettos, the one I have is all I have.)
@Damage-
1.  Maybe explain what you mean, then?  Usually when somebody says a different build is more reliable, they mean it gets better hands and wins more often. 
2.  "You think why all people use 30 carded decks? For better draws.Not for deckouting."  You don't say? /sarcasm  My draws are plenty good as they are.
3.  Who are you quoting?  Also, put spaces after periods, they make your posts easier to read.

 Whoa,little guy tripped on me.30 card is better.Everybody knows it.Dont discuss.
Balance with all...specially, :gravity

Offline Absol

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Re: LS gargoyles! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39099.msg490600#msg490600
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2012, 09:57:36 am »
Okay, since this has devolved into a small flame war, i think it's better to keep on track, rather than just bashing each other.

LS Gargoyle, TIO's version:
Spoiler for Hidden:
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5uo 5uo 5up 5up 5up 5uq 5uq 5uq 5ur 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 5v2 5v2 5v2 8pm
Result:
Spoiler for Hidden:
Player
Wins: 407
Winrate: 40.7 %
Average TTW: 15.914004914004915
EMs: 129
EM rate: 31.695331695331696 %

Computer
Wins: 593
Winrate: 59.3 %
Average TTW: 14.598650927487352
EMs: 324
EM rate: 54.63743676222597 %

LS Gargoyle, Absol's version:
Spoiler for Hidden:
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5up 5up 5up 5up 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 8pm
Result:
Spoiler for Hidden:
Player
Wins: 502
Winrate: 50.2 %
Average TTW: 17.12948207171315
EMs: 226
EM rate: 45.0199203187251 %

Computer
Wins: 498
Winrate: 49.8 %
Average TTW: 16.08433734939759
EMs: 169
EM rate: 33.93574297188755 %

Games simulated by Xeno's Game Simulator. All simulation use AI3 deck, 1000 games per deck.

Note that the only card i added to your deck is +Steal (which is not even needed, if i didn't remove Vamp Dagger). The rest is card removal.
Just by removing cards could increase winrate up to 10%, and EM rate up to 15%. If you say your draw is "good enough", i'll say my draw is "better". Which won me more games.
I won't argue that big decks can't be effective (firestall, ragequit), but that is definitely not the case here.
Also, using sarcasm and "GTFO" is generally frowned upon. Please discuss things civilly.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 10:11:07 am by Absol »
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Offline Damage

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Re: LS gargoyles! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39099.msg490611#msg490611
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2012, 10:53:28 am »
Okay, since this has devolved into a small flame war, i think it's better to keep on track, rather than just bashing each other.

LS Gargoyle, TIO's version:
Spoiler for Hidden:
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5uo 5uo 5up 5up 5up 5uq 5uq 5uq 5ur 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 5v2 5v2 5v2 8pm
Result:
Spoiler for Hidden:
Player
Wins: 407
Winrate: 40.7 %
Average TTW: 15.914004914004915
EMs: 129
EM rate: 31.695331695331696 %

Computer
Wins: 593
Winrate: 59.3 %
Average TTW: 14.598650927487352
EMs: 324
EM rate: 54.63743676222597 %

LS Gargoyle, Absol's version:
Spoiler for Hidden:
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5up 5up 5up 5up 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 8pm
Result:
Spoiler for Hidden:
Player
Wins: 502
Winrate: 50.2 %
Average TTW: 17.12948207171315
EMs: 226
EM rate: 45.0199203187251 %

Computer
Wins: 498
Winrate: 49.8 %
Average TTW: 16.08433734939759
EMs: 169
EM rate: 33.93574297188755 %

Games simulated by Xeno's Game Simulator. All simulation use AI3 deck, 1000 games per deck.

Note that the only card i added to your deck is +Steal (which is not even needed, if i didn't remove Vamp Dagger). The rest is card removal.
Just by removing cards could increase winrate up to 10%, and EM rate up to 15%. If you say your draw is "good enough", i'll say my draw is "better". Which won me more games.
I won't argue that big decks can't be effective (firestall, ragequit), but that is definitely not the case here.
Also, using sarcasm and "GTFO" is generally frowned upon. Please discuss things civilly.

  Truth has been said one more time.
Balance with all...specially, :gravity

Offline TIOTopic starter

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Re: LS gargoyles! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39099.msg490790#msg490790
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2012, 07:58:53 pm »
Okay, since this has devolved into a small flame war, i think it's better to keep on track, rather than just bashing each other.

LS Gargoyle, TIO's version:
Spoiler for Hidden:
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5uo 5uo 5up 5up 5up 5uq 5uq 5uq 5ur 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 5v2 5v2 5v2 8pm
Result:
Spoiler for Hidden:
Player
Wins: 407
Winrate: 40.7 %
Average TTW: 15.914004914004915
EMs: 129
EM rate: 31.695331695331696 %

Computer
Wins: 593
Winrate: 59.3 %
Average TTW: 14.598650927487352
EMs: 324
EM rate: 54.63743676222597 %

LS Gargoyle, Absol's version:
Spoiler for Hidden:
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5up 5up 5up 5up 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 8pm
Result:
Spoiler for Hidden:
Player
Wins: 502
Winrate: 50.2 %
Average TTW: 17.12948207171315
EMs: 226
EM rate: 45.0199203187251 %

Computer
Wins: 498
Winrate: 49.8 %
Average TTW: 16.08433734939759
EMs: 169
EM rate: 33.93574297188755 %

Games simulated by Xeno's Game Simulator. All simulation use AI3 deck, 1000 games per deck.

Note that the only card i added to your deck is +Steal (which is not even needed, if i didn't remove Vamp Dagger). The rest is card removal.
Just by removing cards could increase winrate up to 10%, and EM rate up to 15%. If you say your draw is "good enough", i'll say my draw is "better". Which won me more games.
I won't argue that big decks can't be effective (firestall, ragequit), but that is definitely not the case here.
Also, using sarcasm and "GTFO" is generally frowned upon. Please discuss things civilly.
Thank you for logically talking.  Though I win way more than that, are we playing it differently? 
30 cards will get you better first hands.

Secondly dont be tripping on omega. He knows what he is talking about.
I know he knows, but my first hands are plenty good enough to get me through a vast majority of battles.  Not PVP or anything like that.  I just like the style, if somebody could give me an EXAMPLE of an alteration, I would willingly try it out (no more stilettos, the one I have is all I have.)
@Damage-
1.  Maybe explain what you mean, then?  Usually when somebody says a different build is more reliable, they mean it gets better hands and wins more often. 
2.  "You think why all people use 30 carded decks? For better draws.Not for deckouting."  You don't say? /sarcasm  My draws are plenty good as they are.
3.  Who are you quoting?  Also, put spaces after periods, they make your posts easier to read.

 Whoa,little guy tripped on me.30 card is better.Everybody knows it.Dont discuss.
"little guy"?  We have nearly the same number of posts, I don't know what you're talking about.  And the number of cards that is best varies from deck to deck. 
I love me some troll decks.
Current original decks:
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,39143.0.html

Offline furballdn

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Re: LS gargoyles! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39099.msg491030#msg491030
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2012, 02:45:14 am »
y no nightfall absol?

Offline Absol

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Re: LS gargoyles! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39099.msg491258#msg491258
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2012, 01:14:19 pm »
@TIO:
Even assuming that you play it differently, it was simulated using game simulator. The bad choice AI makes obviously reduce winrate, but it's still good enough to compare 2 decks or more, since the AI playing them will have same playstyle (so there's no bias on that).
Best thing we can do to increase the validity it is by playing the game first-handedly, but come on, who wants to play 2000 games using these decks?

@furball:
I didn't think of using Nightfall. I made the deck merely to show some statistics. You can obviously improve the deck, as my deck is also far from optimal.

@Damage:
I don't think you realize that my earlier post is to make this discussion go back on track. You have no reason nor right to insult people as talentless, nor little guy or "30 card is better, don't discuss". But of course, this coming from a guy who necro a thread and then tried to flame me is... Expected, to say the least.

This is my last post here. Come on, try to keep on track.
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"There is no one who loves pain itself, who seeks after it and wants to have it, simply because it is pain."

Offline TIOTopic starter

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Re: LS gargoyles! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39099.msg492303#msg492303
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2012, 09:37:41 pm »
Alright, I ditched the cloaks and shields, it's faster now.  :P
Will update now.
I love me some troll decks.
Current original decks:
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,39143.0.html

Offline Damage

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Re: LS gargoyles! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39099.msg492776#msg492776
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2012, 06:09:42 pm »
Alright, I ditched the cloaks and shields, it's faster now.  :P
Will update now.

 New version is better I think. It's faster,yeah. But 3 nightfalls is a lot I think.You don't need'em.Cause your gargoyles has heavy HP.I'd drop'em.That'll make it faster. For the past,I apologise.
Balance with all...specially, :gravity

 

anything
blarg: