Post by: furballdn on July 09, 2012, 10:11:48 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/U5A6I.png) | (http://i.imgur.com/xOsGb.png) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Post by: Drake_XIV on July 09, 2012, 10:13:26 pm
I take it protects stacks, not each component individually
Post by: Annele on July 09, 2012, 10:19:59 pm
It seems to be :air's theme, to be able to be played in any deck upped.
Post by: furballdn on July 09, 2012, 10:22:40 pm
Hey, he posts another card!I don't really understand that, so I'll try and use an example
I take it protects stacks, not each component individually
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd81866/orderactions.png)
Assume you played an air tower, air pend, unstable gas, shard of gratitude, EE, and fog shield in that order. That'd be 6 permanents. With 3 airborne creatures on the field your tower, pend, and UG would be protected. With 4 creatures, your fog shield would be included as well. With 5, SoG, and with 6, EE would be protected. There's no real advantage to having multiple Stolas besides more protection and safety. As long as one Stolas exists on your side of the field with its ability, the field protection will take effect.
Post by: Drake_XIV on July 09, 2012, 10:24:18 pm
Post by: furballdn on July 09, 2012, 10:24:37 pm
I meant if you have 4 Air Towers and one Stolas with no other creatures, it protects the entire stack, not just one Tower.Yes. Stacks count as one permanent.
Post by: OldTrees on July 09, 2012, 10:28:02 pm
Somethings to note:
The Mark is the 5th permanent and will be skipped by Stolas until cards that target the opponent's mark are added.
Additional Stolas count as Airborne creatures (+1 permanent protected) and provide provide backups in case a Stolas is killed.
Post by: Vangelios on July 09, 2012, 10:33:40 pm
Post by: furballdn on July 09, 2012, 10:35:06 pm
is to the deck Firefly Queen unbeatable!!!,?
Are you saying adding it to FFQs makes it unbeatable? That's not true at all. In fact, this hardly covers any of the main weaknesses that FFQ decks have (slow start, lots of quanta usage, weak to lobo, weak to mass AoE, weak to CC, no way to get around shields). Stolas is only a permanent protector.
Post by: Drake_XIV on July 09, 2012, 10:35:59 pm
Post by: furballdn on July 09, 2012, 10:37:17 pm
I'd say it has more use in a UG deck, meaning upped Queens and Fireflies...Still doesn't make it unbeatable. Nothing is unbeatable. It does help UG decks with permanent protection, but then you're adding in Stolas just to fit cards, and I'm not sure if a deck that has queens, fireflies, UG, AND Stolas will be smooth enough to take off.
Post by: Drake_XIV on July 09, 2012, 10:40:31 pm
Post by: furballdn on July 09, 2012, 10:43:06 pm
Never said unbeatable. I just meant uses. Either, way I personally see no faults with this card. Well, maybe it has too much HP, but that's not too much of an issue.6HP means that it'll take about 2 CC cards to kill it. With way more elements having CC than PC, it means that you have a way around this even if you're using a mono air or a mono gravity against it.
Post by: Vangelios on July 09, 2012, 10:52:42 pm
Post by: furballdn on July 09, 2012, 10:54:59 pm
but the version upgrad he is rainbow, and is very cheap for a rainbow card.Sure you can use it in a rainbow, but it's mostly for use in other elements that want protection (life, light, aether, time). Unless you build a whole rainbow deck based on airborne creatures, why would anyone use this over EA?
Post by: Drake_XIV on July 09, 2012, 10:59:14 pm
Post by: Vangelios on July 09, 2012, 11:07:11 pm
Post by: Drake_XIV on July 09, 2012, 11:08:47 pm
Post by: furballdn on July 09, 2012, 11:11:43 pm
I confess that the idea is cool, but it would be well balanced to protect only permanent air.Air is supposed to be a fluid element (moreso than water in my opinion). Just look at animate weapon. Besides, air is not the only element with airborne cards and not the only element to need some anti PC.
Post by: Vangelios on July 09, 2012, 11:16:03 pm
Post by: furballdn on July 09, 2012, 11:17:43 pm
the version upgrad, I'm sure is out of balance,Our resident aged perennial woody plant has reasoned it is not too unbalanced or anything. I'd like to hear your ideas why it is unbalanced, any deck examples involving this that are OP, and any feedback/suggestions you have to make it not out of balance then.
Post by: Vangelios on July 09, 2012, 11:43:49 pm
the version upgrad, I'm sure is out of balance,Our resident aged perennial woody plant has reasoned it is not too unbalanced or anything. I'd like to hear your ideas why it is unbalanced, any deck examples involving this that are OP, and any feedback/suggestions you have to make it not out of balance then.
I generally use immolation to put dragons, now I can put + 2 of these creatures in one turn.
19 damage and more protection. (protection because they use the same long sword,will already protected), now 25 damages
Post by: furballdn on July 09, 2012, 11:46:45 pm
You did not give any specific decks so I have no idea how to really reply. One immolation cannot put out a fire dragon, even a cremation can't. You'd need fire pillars or towers as support, and even then, the very earliest you'd get out a dragon would be second or third turn. You can get out two Stolas? Great! You do 4 extra damage each turn at the expense of 8 :rainbow! You also get protection! Woo! Your fire pillars (or fog shield or arsenic/stilleto) are protected, how nice! (That is, if you can fit them into an immo deck that uses fire towers as support. If you go the pure immo/crema way with no towers, your dragons come out slower and your whole deck is less stable). Completely disregard the fact that you could have easily packed cheaper PAs or SoBe or SoFre for more damage potential. You have not proved Stolas is OP.the version upgrad, I'm sure is out of balance,Our resident aged perennial woody plant has reasoned it is not too unbalanced or anything. I'd like to hear your ideas why it is unbalanced, any deck examples involving this that are OP, and any feedback/suggestions you have to make it not out of balance then.
I generally use immolation to put dragons, now I can put 2 + of these creatures in one turn.
19 damage and more protection.
Post by: Vangelios on July 09, 2012, 11:59:44 pm
op cards are only in one round?
Post by: furballdn on July 10, 2012, 12:24:23 am
I did not say what needed to be in a roundI don't really understand at all. Care to explain further?
op cards are only in one round?
It's not like immorush decks really need anti PC anyway, since they're more focused on rushing and speed.
Post by: Absol on July 10, 2012, 01:02:16 am
Also, SoP.
Post by: furballdn on July 10, 2012, 01:08:03 am
Fractal ALL the Stolas!I've considered that. Fractalling Stolas requires 4 :rainbow each. That means with QTs, each tower produces 75% of a Stolas. Why would you do that when you could use emerald towers and each emerald tower produces half of a frog? 75% of a Stolas is a 1.5 attacker while half of a frog is a 2.5 attacker. Sure, fractalling it would protect your entire field, but under what circumstances would you dedicate so much quanta and hand space just for full permanent protection? Using SoP still has the flaws of SoP. SoP is slow and a stallbreaker, meaning you'd likely get outrushed if you were using a fractal Stolas SoP deck.
Also, SoP.
Post by: OldTrees on July 10, 2012, 02:12:01 am
I think you will find Immolation prefers lots of cheap but high attack creatures over Stolas. Would you play 1 Graboid or 1 Stolas in a Immolation deck? Lycanthrope or Stolas?the version upgrad, I'm sure is out of balance,Our resident aged perennial woody plant has reasoned it is not too unbalanced or anything. I'd like to hear your ideas why it is unbalanced, any deck examples involving this that are OP, and any feedback/suggestions you have to make it not out of balance then.
I generally use immolation to put dragons, now I can put + 2 of these creatures in one turn.
19 damage and more protection. (protection because they use the same long sword,will already protected), now 25 damages
Post by: Vangelios on July 10, 2012, 02:27:17 am
I think you will find Immolation prefers lots of cheap but high attack creatures over Stolas. Would you play 1 Graboid or 1 Stolas in a Immolation deck? Lycanthrope or Stolas?the version upgrad, I'm sure is out of balance,Our resident aged perennial woody plant has reasoned it is not too unbalanced or anything. I'd like to hear your ideas why it is unbalanced, any deck examples involving this that are OP, and any feedback/suggestions you have to make it not out of balance then.
I generally use immolation to put dragons, now I can put + 2 of these creatures in one turn.
19 damage and more protection. (protection because they use the same long sword,will already protected), now 25 damages
I am referring to monored
Post by: Drake_XIV on July 10, 2012, 02:29:11 am
I think you will find Immolation prefers lots of cheap but high attack creatures over Stolas. Would you play 1 Graboid or 1 Stolas in a Immolation deck? Lycanthrope or Stolas?the version upgrad, I'm sure is out of balance,Our resident aged perennial woody plant has reasoned it is not too unbalanced or anything. I'd like to hear your ideas why it is unbalanced, any deck examples involving this that are OP, and any feedback/suggestions you have to make it not out of balance then.
I generally use immolation to put dragons, now I can put + 2 of these creatures in one turn.
19 damage and more protection. (protection because they use the same long sword,will already protected), now 25 damages
I am referring to monored
In that case, why are you bothering with a Stolas, With Immos, you're bound to get those PAs out.
Post by: furballdn on July 10, 2012, 02:30:49 am
Post by: Vangelios on July 10, 2012, 02:45:07 am
Very few people use immos in mono fire. Most mono fire decks would use towers. You mentioned you were using dragons and not golems. So why wouldn't you pack in PA instead of Stolas? Sure, it makes your deck technically a duo, but if all you're going for is protecting your longsword, you're going to need at least 2 Stolas (8 :rainbow + 2 cards) instead of 1 PA (1 :earth + 1 card).
immolations in monored can destroys in 4 rounds, is very speed, stolas would give more power to damage and protection to long sword
Post by: furballdn on July 10, 2012, 02:47:48 am
Post by: Drake_XIV on July 10, 2012, 02:55:28 am
immolations in monored can destroys in 4 rounds, is very speed, stolas would give more power to damage and protection to long swordMethinks you are forgetting about the eleven other quanta Immo produces that ISN'T :fire .
Post by: Vangelios on July 10, 2012, 02:57:47 am
Why would you want to use two stolas as 4 damage and a PA for your sword when you could easily use that quanta for grabboids, frogs, and PA?
I am referring to up stolas, graboids are :earth :earth :earth
Post by: Drake_XIV on July 10, 2012, 02:59:17 am
We're talking about Permenent Protection, which Stolas is. The only other protection right now is Enchant Artifact [2 | 1 :earth ]. With Immolation, it is a much better deal that Stolas.Why would you want to use two stolas as 4 damage and a PA for your sword when you could easily use that quanta for grabboids, frogs, and PA?
I am referring to up stolas, graboids are :earth :earth :earth
Post by: Vangelios on July 10, 2012, 03:22:14 am
We're talking about Permenent Protection, which Stolas is. The only other protection right now is Enchant Artifact [2 | 1 :earth ]. With Immolation, it is a much better deal that Stolas.Why would you want to use two stolas as 4 damage and a PA for your sword when you could easily use that quanta for grabboids, frogs, and PA?
I am referring to up stolas, graboids are :earth :earth :earth
Enchant Artifact can not attack
Post by: furballdn on July 10, 2012, 03:34:45 am
Post by: OldTrees on July 10, 2012, 04:44:45 am
I was referring to ImmolationI think you will find Immolation prefers lots of cheap but high attack creatures over Stolas. Would you play 1 Graboid or 1 Stolas in a Immolation deck? Lycanthrope or Stolas?the version upgrad, I'm sure is out of balance,Our resident aged perennial woody plant has reasoned it is not too unbalanced or anything. I'd like to hear your ideas why it is unbalanced, any deck examples involving this that are OP, and any feedback/suggestions you have to make it not out of balance then.
I generally use immolation to put dragons, now I can put + 2 of these creatures in one turn.
19 damage and more protection. (protection because they use the same long sword,will already protected), now 25 damages
I am referring to monored
You can use the extra quanta as 11 :rainbow or as 1 quanta of each non fire. The efficient way is to treat it as 1 quanta of each non fire. (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17173.0.html My Balls can go BOOOOM!! > Fire Lava Destroyer Rush Ver. 2)
Post by: furballdn on July 10, 2012, 06:12:44 pm
(http://imageplay.net/img/tya22275119/StolasLarge.png)
Post by: Zaealix on July 11, 2012, 12:02:34 am
Otherwise, an interesting card, could make an interesting addition to this game.
Post by: furballdn on July 11, 2012, 12:04:24 am
My question is this: Where's the name from?
Otherwise, an interesting card, could make an interesting addition to this game.
Quote from: wikipedia
Stolas is a Great Prince of Hell, commands twenty-six legions of demons, and teaches astronomy and the knowledge of poisonous plants, herbs and precious stones. He is also known as Stolos and Solas. He is depicted as either being a crowned owl with long legs, a raven, or a man.
Tried to come up with the idea of some kind of aged or wise bird with large wings. Fell upon the idea of an owl, and the owl was the shape that Stolas took. Very awesome name, so why not?
Post by: dragonsdemesne on July 11, 2012, 12:11:43 am
I'm a little nervous about the 'other' cost, though; you could put this in, say, monolight and protect all your sancs with nothing but a couple RoLs in play. The other thing that worries me a bit is the high 6 hp, which puts it out of range of most removal, making it fairly hard to work around. There are a few ways around it, like killing everything else (but then, why couldn't you kill Stolas?) or rewinding it, and there are, of course, still ways to kill it without spending two cards, but there aren't too many.
I think the card probably needs a small nerf. I mentioned having it protect 1 card for every TWO airborne creatures in chat, but furball felt that would ruin it, and that is probably overkill. Another possible nerf could be not to count itself as one of the airborne creatures, i.e. protect 1 card for every other airborne creature you have in play. The idea I like the most, though, is to make the 'other' cost on the upped version more than 4, maybe like 6 or 7. That way, you can still use it in any deck you want, but you gain a clear advantage for using it in an air deck, in addition to the many airborne creatures air has. (though some elements like light and fire have nearly as many)
Post by: OdinVanguard on July 11, 2012, 12:13:20 am
Post by: Annele on July 11, 2012, 12:17:53 am
I definitely like the idea, and the art is pretty cool, too. Don't give up on this card; it's a pretty cool concept.
I'm a little nervous about the 'other' cost, though; you could put this in, say, monolight and protect all your sancs with nothing but a couple RoLs in play. The other thing that worries me a bit is the high 6 hp, which puts it out of range of most removal, making it fairly hard to work around. There are a few ways around it, like killing everything else (but then, why couldn't you kill Stolas?) or rewinding it, and there are, of course, still ways to kill it without spending two cards, but there aren't too many.
I think the card probably needs a small nerf. I mentioned having it protect 1 card for every TWO airborne creatures in chat, but furball felt that would ruin it, and that is probably overkill. Another possible nerf could be not to count itself as one of the airborne creatures, i.e. protect 1 card for every other airborne creature you have in play. The idea I like the most, though, is to make the 'other' cost on the upped version more than 4, maybe like 6 or 7. That way, you can still use it in any deck you want, but you gain a clear advantage for using it in an air deck, in addition to the many airborne creatures air has. (though some elements like light and fire have nearly as many)
I agree with this. Maybe making it 4 :air | 5 :rainbow and not count itself as an airbourne?
Or maybe wingbeat could be removed if webbed.
Post by: dragonsdemesne on July 11, 2012, 12:28:42 am
I agree with this. Maybe making it 4 :air | 5 :rainbow and not count itself as an airbourne?
Or maybe wingbeat could be removed if webbed.
Well, wingbeat would already be indirectly removed if webbed. You might still have wingbeat, but if everything gets webbed, it's worthless. I actually like this idea a little more now, because it indirectly makes web slightly more useful :p
Post by: furballdn on July 11, 2012, 12:44:14 am
The 4 :other cost means it's not that cheap to play in nonrainbow decks, and even in rainbow decks, there are better options available. 6HP is about 2 CC cards worth. 2 CC cards to act as anti-anti-PC sounds fine to me. There's plenty of ways to deal with this even without direct damage. Lobo'ing it, webbing it, mutating it, etc. It's meant as a defensive card, so it has the weaknesses of all defensive cards, the speed. It'll take some time to set up Stolas and enough flying creatures to act as a full field enchant for yourself, but what then? Do you have the offense or the stall capabilities to beat your opponent before you're outrushed by your opponent? If you play a mono light deck, and wanted to protect all your sancts, you'd need 9 airborne creatures (pillar, pend, sanct1-2, shield if you choose to use one, sanct 3-6). All in all, that's a huge amount of card space you'd be using just to protect your sancts.
And yes, this does buff spiders a bit. Web does need to be more used.
I am still not convinced that this card needs nerfing, but if it does, an idea I've thought up of is, the first Stolas does not count as a protector (hey, the tactician is the lazy one).
Post by: OldTrees on July 11, 2012, 12:54:23 am
Post by: dragonsdemesne on July 11, 2012, 01:29:26 am
I don't really want to make the upped cost 5 :rainbow, since that would make it worse in a mono air deck. Upped cards should never be worse than their unupped counterparts in most settings (shush druidic staff!)
It's a bit off-topic, but I actually disagree with this quite strongly :p As quite a few examples that I think Zanz agrees with me, I'll cite toadfish, chaos seed, nova, hope, red nymph, phoenix, mind flayer, several dragons/shields, and basically any card I didn't mention where the upped version costs more than the unupped one to play as cases where the unupped version can be better in certain situations.
Even if you did make the upped one cost more than 4 :rainbow quanta, it would still be better in the majority of decks. Any deck lacking air quanta, obviously, as well as most rainbows and even duos/trios/whatever that include air might make more use of a higher quanta other cost than a lower quanta air cost.
Post by: furballdn on July 11, 2012, 01:45:33 am
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on July 11, 2012, 04:19:40 am
As for balancing:
Cost = Attack + HP + Ability + Bonus
Attack = +2
HP = +1 (6-7)
Ability = Instant PA by itself. That translates into +2 :underworld (I believe the random protection and the 1-for-each-airborne would cancel each other out when altering cost...)
Bonus : None.
Final Cost : 2 + 1 + 2 = 5 :air
Cost = Attack + HP + Ability + Bonus
Attack = +2
HP = +1 (6-7)
Ability = Instant PA by itself. That translates into +2 :underworld (I believe the random protection and the 1-for-each-airborne would cancel each other out when altering cost...)
Bonus : -1 or -2 for upgrades
Final Cost : 2 + 1 + 2 + (-1 Or - 2) = 4 or 3 :air
but
Other Cost = 1.5 + 1.5*Elemental Cost
1.5 + (1.5*4)=7.5
1.5 + (1.5 * 3) = 6
Final Upped Cost : 6 :rainbow
Conclusion:
Should either be slightly more expensive, have a stat nerf (as OT suggested), or do this:
Quote from: furballdn
the first Stolas does not count as a protector
I personally prefer the second option as this card's ideal usage is permanent protection (the first and third options just make it slower to activate and less convienient).
Post by: OldTrees on July 11, 2012, 05:31:01 am
As for balancing:I was unsure whether to treat this as +1 or +2. What was your reasoning?
Ability = Instant PA by itself. That translates into +2 :underworld (I believe the random protection and the 1-for-each-airborne would cancel each other out
Post by: furballdn on July 11, 2012, 06:22:25 am
2atk=2 cost. 6hp=+1cost. ability=+1-2cost. Airbonus=-1.
As for upped, I just took the cost and made it rainbow, like animate weapon. It'd still be roughly the same speed in nonrainbows, and rainbows would have other cards to pack in rather than Stolas. Nonetheless, I'll put up a poll to see what you all think.
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on July 11, 2012, 04:12:53 pm
I treated as +2 based on the following:As for balancing:I was unsure whether to treat this as +1 or +2. What was your reasoning?
Ability = Instant PA by itself. That translates into +2 :underworld (I believe the random protection and the 1-for-each-airborne would cancel each other out
- Unupgraded, PA is 1 Card + 2 :earth for 1 Protected Permanent . IMHO no card should be able to outdo that ratio of cost/protection without a reasonable drawback or other factor.
I initially thought simply the above was the main balancing factor and used a bit of intuition at that point, but after reviewing the ability I realized there is another reason it is probably worth +2 :
- Had this card been 0 | 5 it would've essentially been a PA that randomly targeted a permanent your controlled.
- That is inferior to to PA, but when rereviewing the other two factors (randomly targets and 1-for-each-airborne) it's worth considering that all of :air 's creatures are Airborne (Along with about half the ETG creatures in general), which means that for at least every :air creature you play Stolas will protect another permanent. (This translates to PA on a stick for 1 Card + 0 Quanta.)
- Since it is 'repeatable' but requires a different 'ability cost' than quanta that is easily fulfilled I felt it was best as a +2. (I assume the majority of Stolas players will run Airborne decks, meaning most if not all if their permanents will likely end up protected. It's also worth noting that normal repeatable abilities can't execute their effect more than once per turn while Stolas technically can protect several permanents in one turn as long as Airborne cards are played.)
Wow. I think this is my first topic that has got the red icon and my most welcomed card idea. This was my rationale for balancing it (although my method is probably outdated)Grats. :)
2atk=2 cost. 6hp=+1cost. ability=+1-2cost. Airbonus=-1.
As for upped, I just took the cost and made it rainbow, like animate weapon. It'd still be roughly the same speed in nonrainbows, and rainbows would have other cards to pack in rather than Stolas. Nonetheless, I'll put up a poll to see what you all think.
As for your balancing, it seems pretty close to what I probably did, though I'm curious about where you got the Air bonus from, since the only known bonuses I'm aware of are:
Quote
:fire Fire gets 1 free attack plus 1 per 9 cost.
:earth Earth gets 1 free HP.
:aether Aether, :life Life and :light Light get -1 cost for their creatures.
Could you explain why Air would also give an innate -1 bonus?
Post by: OldTrees on July 11, 2012, 05:05:56 pm
All elemental bonuses are outdated. Now I assume that the first 1|1 is free (aka Photon is the standard for the value of a card.)Wow. I think this is my first topic that has got the red icon and my most welcomed card idea. This was my rationale for balancing it (although my method is probably outdated)Grats. :)
2atk=2 cost. 6hp=+1cost. ability=+1-2cost. Airbonus=-1.
As for upped, I just took the cost and made it rainbow, like animate weapon. It'd still be roughly the same speed in nonrainbows, and rainbows would have other cards to pack in rather than Stolas. Nonetheless, I'll put up a poll to see what you all think.
As for your balancing, it seems pretty close to what I probably did, though I'm curious about where you got the Air bonus from, since the only known bonuses I'm aware of are:Quote:fire Fire gets 1 free attack plus 1 per 9 cost.
:earth Earth gets 1 free HP.
:aether Aether, :life Life and :light Light get -1 cost for their creatures.
Could you explain why Air would also give an innate -1 bonus?
Good points ZBlader. I now agree with the +2 estimate despite the restriction in targeting. I would now recommend the -1 attack nerf.
Post by: furballdn on July 11, 2012, 10:51:58 pm
Post by: OldTrees on July 11, 2012, 10:56:45 pm
Over 9 different people commented but only 5 votes? please, y u no vote.I rarely vote. I prefer to let the people I convince vote for me. This helps counteract the title's effect.
Post by: Annele on July 13, 2012, 05:30:16 am
Over 9 different people commented but only 9 votes? please, y u no vote.
This is fixed now.
Post by: furballdn on July 13, 2012, 05:32:09 am
Post by: furballdn on July 15, 2012, 06:36:03 pm
Post by: blarp on July 26, 2012, 05:30:31 am
That's one good card. I'd spam those, feral bonds, and epi any day :P but that is a little cheap there fur :P
actually i'd just use monoaether or something or anything really doesn't matter :P it's just too good sorry :P it really can't be elementless imo
Post by: furballdn on July 26, 2012, 06:29:08 am
Post by: ndclub on July 26, 2012, 07:06:50 am
Post by: OldTrees on July 26, 2012, 07:24:55 am
Big nono to upgrade having other casting cost. Other than that I love the card as well as mechanic and I think it would bring great things to the game and another dimension of strategy.
Why?
Post by: ndclub on July 26, 2012, 04:13:28 pm
Overlooking the fact that it is overpowered with "other" cost in the rainbow, the simple fact that it would be more powerful than in a mono or duo is a rich get richer situation. Also this is a mechanic that could be unique to air but instead if every deck has it then air loses tons of uniqueness, something avoided in the past with elements development. Let me ask you this then: give me an argument why it should be "other cost".
Post by: Trollinator on July 26, 2012, 04:59:38 pm
unnupped FFQ
Stolas
Shard of Freedom
Eagle Eye
Hope
Good luck killing Stolas. SoFr gives Evasion to :air flyers. Stolas out? Not killing EE or SoFr. :P
Stolas would bring new life to an old deck. 8)
Post by: furballdn on July 26, 2012, 06:28:28 pm
Let me explain why I made it other.
4 :rainbow is about 2 :underworld which is 2 :air. Going from 4 :air to 2 :air in an upgrade acceptable.
Like flying weapon, Stolas can be splashed into other decks allowing for much more flexibility.
Air is the element of fluidity, so it should be able to be used in many decks.
Airborne is not just restricted to air, so the benefits of airborne shouldn't be restricted to air.
One of the many arguments I hear against an other cost is "rainbows will abuse it!" Okay, prove that to me. Make me a rainbow deck that makes use of Stolas to prove it's broken. You're going to be sacrificing precious card space to pack these in, and they only will be that useful if your entire deck is airborne. If you manage to make an airborne rainbow, be sure to let me know. I've wanted to make an airborne rainbow for some time, but lava golems and graboids don't fly. Why should a rainbow waste precious card space on Stolas? Why not pack a 1 :earth PA? Or a lava golem? Or an archangel? So what if your entire deck is airborne based (slower rainbow), the only benefit you will get is your entire field's permanents being protected, a moot point if you've been outrushed.
As for trollinator's comment, I think all of you are forgetting how long Stolas (and FFQ) take to set up. And even then, a single RoF goes through trollinator's entire strategy (SoFre doesn't stop AoE)
Post by: OldTrees on July 26, 2012, 06:34:34 pm
Not only does animate weapon have only 1 casting cost, something that does not gain that much benefit from being in a rainbow compared to mono, but its mechanic is far less game changing in my mind. Other cost is a HUGE draw to rainbows even if the little owls did not have a skill they would be able to spam them like nothing. Rainbows would also have a greater amount of flying creatures to draw from and easier ability to put those out as well.1) Are you saying that Stolas's effect is more efficient in a rainbow deck than a mono deck and the cost of the upgraded version does not reflect that increase even after taking the upgrade bonus into account?
Overlooking the fact that it is overpowered with "other" cost in the rainbow, the simple fact that it would be more powerful than in a mono or duo is a rich get richer situation. Also this is a mechanic that could be unique to air but instead if every deck has it then air loses tons of uniqueness, something avoided in the past with elements development. Let me ask you this then: give me an argument why it should be "other cost".
2) I do not see a rich get richer situation. Would you enlighten me?
In a speed rainbow it has too little attack though it does give some stability. It is not part of an OTK combo for OTK rainbow. Stall rainbows would use it however I don't think Stall rainbows would be considered "rich" in the current metagame.
3) One does not lose what was not gained. Air does not posses any permanent protection at this time. It does not lose uniqueness by only gaining an oligopoly (with earth) when unupped. While this means your point is not an accurate criticism of this card, it does remain a reason for costing elemental quanta.
4) Argument for it being other cost? [Disclaimer: I have not stated my preference]
Let's assume:
Only Mono and Duo decks exist. (false but used as a simplification)
There are currently an equal amount of decks for every duo combination. (false but used as a simplification)
The greater the number of added decks the better. (generally true)
Adding a card adds 1 deck (false but used as a simplification)
A duo card adds 1 deck. (setting the unit of measure)
A mono card adds 1+11 decks. (mono + duo)
An other card adds 12+132 decks. (mono + duo)
Post by: ndclub on July 26, 2012, 07:56:47 pm
Post by: furballdn on July 26, 2012, 08:02:12 pm
I am much more inclined to agree with the logic of furballdn than the logic of oldtrees after reading through his post several times it just seemed contrary. The challenge was issued to give what decks would be overpowered in theory with mr. owl being colorless. My first example would be of monoaether. I understand that dragons are a slower attack and that quints would have to be thrown on stolas to be nearly unbeatable, both lobo and dim shield are now here to stay. My other example is in a mono fire phoenix/seraph. I understand that permanents are not as crucial to this deck but its just another card to push it further in strength, immolation makes stolas extremely easy to get out. These are the first two that come to mind but I can theory craft more.You bring up mono aether as an example. Let us examine that. If you are you using a mono with pillar/pend split, you need at least 2 Stolas to protect that. What's most crucial to a MA deck? Dim shields. You'd need at least 3 Stolas to protect your dim shield. How much is that? 12 :rainbow + 3 cards in a mono aether (already very expensive). You want to protect your lobotomizer as well? 16 :rainbow + 4 cards. See how you can squeeze that into a MA.
Phoenix/seraph? Okay, design me an immorush that uses Stolas, phoenix and seraph. You're using an immorush anyway, so you don't have much permanents to begin with (1-2 max). You want to use Stolas for offense? Sure, 4 :rainbow for 2atk. Be my guest.