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Offline dragonsdemesne

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Re: Stolas | Stolas https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41891.msg520367#msg520367
« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2012, 01:29:26 am »
I don't really want to make the upped cost 5 :rainbow, since that would make it worse in a mono air deck. Upped cards should never be worse than their unupped counterparts in most settings (shush druidic staff!)

It's a bit off-topic, but I actually disagree with this quite strongly :p  As quite a few examples that I think Zanz agrees with me, I'll cite toadfish, chaos seed, nova, hope, red nymph, phoenix, mind flayer, several dragons/shields, and basically any card I didn't mention where the upped version costs more than the unupped one to play as cases where the unupped version can be better in certain situations.

Even if you did make the upped one cost more than 4 :rainbow quanta, it would still be better in the majority of decks.  Any deck lacking air quanta, obviously, as well as most rainbows and even duos/trios/whatever that include air might make more use of a higher quanta other cost than a lower quanta air cost.

Offline furballdnTopic starter

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Re: Stolas | Stolas https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41891.msg520371#msg520371
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2012, 01:45:33 am »
Toadfish, chaos seed, nova, phoenix, and red nymph aren't better unupped or upped. Each one fulfills their own purpose. Trying to compare phoenix with minor phoenix is sort of comparing apples to oranges because one fits the role of a high midrange hitter, and the other a cheap low midrange hitter. In all the cases where the upped version costs more than unupped, something changed (either better stats or more dr, or other cases). It just means that they fulfill different roles. Unupped and upped Stolas have the exact same stats and purpose, with only the upped being more flexible and able to be placed in other decks. I don't want to make it hurt :air (What's that? You upped this card for your deck? Well too bad! Now it costs even more to play for the exact same thing!).

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Re: Stolas | Stolas https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41891.msg520428#msg520428
« Reply #50 on: July 11, 2012, 04:19:40 am »
Essentially Variable PA on a creature. I like it. :)

As for balancing:
Cost = Attack + HP + Ability + Bonus
Attack = +2
HP = +1 (6-7)
Ability = Instant PA by itself. That translates into +2 :underworld (I believe the random protection and the 1-for-each-airborne would cancel each other out when altering cost...)
Bonus : None.
Final Cost : 2  + 1 + 2 = 5 :air

Cost = Attack + HP + Ability + Bonus
Attack = +2
HP = +1 (6-7)
Ability = Instant PA by itself. That translates into +2 :underworld (I believe the random protection and the 1-for-each-airborne would cancel each other out when altering cost...)
Bonus : -1 or -2 for upgrades
Final Cost : 2  + 1 + 2 + (-1 Or - 2) = 4 or 3  :air

but

Other Cost = 1.5 + 1.5*Elemental Cost
1.5 + (1.5*4)=7.5
1.5 + (1.5 * 3) = 6
Final Upped Cost : 6 :rainbow

Conclusion:
Should either be slightly more expensive, have a stat nerf (as OT suggested), or do this:
Quote from: furballdn
the first Stolas does not count as a protector

I personally prefer the second option as this card's ideal usage is permanent protection (the first and third options just make it slower to activate and less convienient).
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 04:21:42 am by Zblader »

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Stolas | Stolas https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41891.msg520453#msg520453
« Reply #51 on: July 11, 2012, 05:31:01 am »
As for balancing:
Ability = Instant PA by itself. That translates into +2 :underworld (I believe the random protection and the 1-for-each-airborne would cancel each other out
I was unsure whether to treat this as +1 or +2. What was your reasoning?
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Offline furballdnTopic starter

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Re: Stolas | Stolas https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41891.msg520469#msg520469
« Reply #52 on: July 11, 2012, 06:22:25 am »
Wow. I think this is my first topic that has got the red icon and my most welcomed card idea. This was my rationale for balancing it (although my method is probably outdated)

2atk=2 cost. 6hp=+1cost. ability=+1-2cost. Airbonus=-1.

As for upped, I just took the cost and made it rainbow, like animate weapon. It'd still be roughly the same speed in nonrainbows, and rainbows would have other cards to pack in rather than Stolas. Nonetheless, I'll put up a poll to see what you all think.

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Re: Stolas | Stolas https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41891.msg520639#msg520639
« Reply #53 on: July 11, 2012, 04:12:53 pm »
As for balancing:
Ability = Instant PA by itself. That translates into +2 :underworld (I believe the random protection and the 1-for-each-airborne would cancel each other out
I was unsure whether to treat this as +1 or +2. What was your reasoning?
I treated as +2 based on the following:

- Unupgraded, PA is 1 Card + 2 :earth for 1 Protected Permanent . IMHO no card should be able to outdo that ratio of cost/protection without a reasonable drawback or other factor.

I initially thought simply the above was the main balancing factor and used a bit of intuition at that point, but after reviewing the ability I realized there is another reason it is probably worth +2 :

- Had this card been 0 | 5 it would've essentially been a PA that randomly targeted a permanent your controlled.
- That is inferior to to PA, but when rereviewing the other two factors (randomly targets and 1-for-each-airborne) it's worth considering that all of :air 's creatures are Airborne (Along with about half the ETG creatures in general), which means that for at least every :air creature  you play Stolas will protect another permanent. (This translates to PA on a stick for 1 Card + 0 Quanta.)
- Since it is 'repeatable' but requires a different 'ability cost' than quanta that is easily fulfilled I felt it was best as a +2. (I assume the majority of Stolas players will run Airborne decks, meaning most if not all if their permanents will likely end up protected. It's also worth noting that normal repeatable abilities can't execute their effect more than once per turn while Stolas technically can protect several permanents in one turn as long as Airborne cards are played.)

Wow. I think this is my first topic that has got the red icon and my most welcomed card idea. This was my rationale for balancing it (although my method is probably outdated)

2atk=2 cost. 6hp=+1cost. ability=+1-2cost. Airbonus=-1.

As for upped, I just took the cost and made it rainbow, like animate weapon. It'd still be roughly the same speed in nonrainbows, and rainbows would have other cards to pack in rather than Stolas. Nonetheless, I'll put up a poll to see what you all think.
Grats. :)

As for your balancing, it seems pretty close to what I probably did, though I'm curious about where you got the Air bonus from, since the only known bonuses I'm aware of are:
Quote
:fire Fire gets 1 free attack plus 1 per 9 cost.
:earth Earth gets 1 free HP.
:aether Aether, :life Life and :light Light get -1 cost for their creatures.

Could you explain why Air would also give an innate -1 bonus?

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Re: Stolas | Stolas https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41891.msg520661#msg520661
« Reply #54 on: July 11, 2012, 05:05:56 pm »
Wow. I think this is my first topic that has got the red icon and my most welcomed card idea. This was my rationale for balancing it (although my method is probably outdated)

2atk=2 cost. 6hp=+1cost. ability=+1-2cost. Airbonus=-1.

As for upped, I just took the cost and made it rainbow, like animate weapon. It'd still be roughly the same speed in nonrainbows, and rainbows would have other cards to pack in rather than Stolas. Nonetheless, I'll put up a poll to see what you all think.
Grats. :)

As for your balancing, it seems pretty close to what I probably did, though I'm curious about where you got the Air bonus from, since the only known bonuses I'm aware of are:
Quote
:fire Fire gets 1 free attack plus 1 per 9 cost.
:earth Earth gets 1 free HP.
:aether Aether, :life Life and :light Light get -1 cost for their creatures.

Could you explain why Air would also give an innate -1 bonus?
All elemental bonuses are outdated. Now I assume that the first 1|1 is free (aka Photon is the standard for the value of a card.)

Good points ZBlader. I now agree with the +2 estimate despite the restriction in targeting. I would now recommend the -1 attack nerf.
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Offline furballdnTopic starter

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Re: Stolas | Stolas https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41891.msg520801#msg520801
« Reply #55 on: July 11, 2012, 10:51:58 pm »
Over 9 different people commented but only 5 votes? please, y u no vote.

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Re: Stolas | Stolas https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41891.msg520802#msg520802
« Reply #56 on: July 11, 2012, 10:56:45 pm »
Over 9 different people commented but only 5 votes? please, y u no vote.
I rarely vote. I prefer to let the people I convince vote for me. This helps counteract the title's effect.
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Re: Stolas | Stolas https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41891.msg521361#msg521361
« Reply #57 on: July 13, 2012, 05:30:16 am »
Over 9 different people commented but only 9 votes? please, y u no vote.

This is fixed now.
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Offline furballdnTopic starter

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Re: Stolas | Stolas https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41891.msg521362#msg521362
« Reply #58 on: July 13, 2012, 05:32:09 am »
Well the majority of people think it's fine.

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Re: Stolas | Stolas https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41891.msg522276#msg522276
« Reply #59 on: July 15, 2012, 06:36:03 pm »
Stools is in the crucible! Thank you to everyone for the support, OldTrees for the balancing, and Zblader for the art. Please vote for it!

 

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