Spirit Nymph | Spirit Nymph

[OldTrees]

Nymphs cost 7|6   + 1 pillar|tower + 2 cards +0|2 upgrades +2 deck slots +2 draws.

Is this Nymph worth 7|6   + 1 quantum pillar|quantum tower + 2 cards +0|2 upgrades +2 deck slots +2 draws?
Does it need to be buffed/nerfed to be balanced with  this^ cost?

[achangeofpace]

I think this is an interesting idea.

I don't like it though because it basically means you can run a Mono-Other and win all the time.

All you need is 6 SoG, 6 SoR, 6 SoD, 6 Spirit Nymphs, and 12 Quantum towers.

You now have mono other. You could toss in more towers / weapons if you want to be better able to deck people and or kill them.


I voted lower attack cost to 1 but I just don't like the synergy this has with the shards.

Other than the nymphs what damage would that deck OF ALL RARES have???

[wizelsnarf]

doesn't need any damage is it would simply deck out the opponent.


If you wanted damage, you would take an air mark and bows or gravity mark and gavels...

[ZephyrPhantom]

P.S. i like the second border more

For those of you who like the second border, thanks. Maybe if Zanz likes it it can be implemented, but I'm keeping the card border normal so the curators don't get all fussy.

Here is my calculation of my own card:
Creature Cost = Attack + HP + Ability Threat + Bonuses
Unupped
Attack : + 4
HP: +1 (6-7)
Ability Threat : + 3 (SoD on stick although you do take damage.), -1  for expensive ability, Final Value +2
Bonuses?: +1-3 due to being Other.
Final Cost : 9 - 12
If Alternate Theory for Other is applied: 3x quanta cost
Final cost : 27

Upped
Attack : + 4
HP: +2 (8-10)
Ability Threat : + 4 (less damage),-1  for expensive ability, Final Value +3
Bonuses?: +1-3 due to being Other, but -2 due to upgrade, Final Value +0-1
Final Cost : 9 - 11
Final Cost: 8-11
If Alternate Theory for Other is applied: 3x quanta cost
Final cost : 24
I may reduce the stats to 1 | 4 / 1 | 6 and make the ability cost 4. With changes:
Unupped
Attack : + 1
HP: +0 (1-5)
Ability Threat : + 3 (SoD on stick although you do take damage.), -1  for expensive ability, Final Value +2
Bonuses?: +1-3 due to being Other. I will add +3.
Final Cost :  6
If Alternate Theory for Other is applied: 3x quanta cost
Final cost : 9

Upped
Attack : + 1
HP: +1 (6-7)
Ability Threat : + 4 (Less damage.) -1  for expensive ability, Final Value +3
Bonuses?: +1-3 due to being Other. I will add +3, however -2 for upgrade.
Final Cost :  6
If Alternate Theory for Other is applied: 3x quanta cost
Final cost : 9

Cost will be 9 due to Oldtrees's theory.

Thanks for the help guys!

[OldTrees]

@ZBlader
If this is balanced at anything less than the equivalent of 8 elemental quanta then it will be a nerf to Nymph's tear.
Well ok it is a nerf to NT but it would be a cost affecting nerf to NT unless it would be valued at 8-9 elemental quanta.

I do agree that the x3 method does not work for large costs.
So based on your +1-3 for being other this needs to be balanced at 9-12 |9-12 . (same cost unupped as upgraded)

[ZephyrPhantom]

@ZBlader
If this is balanced at anything less than the equivalent of 8 elemental quanta then it will be a nerf to Nymph's tear.
Well ok it is a nerf to NT but it would be a cost affecting nerf to NT unless it would be valued at 8-9 elemental quanta.  True, and all rares are meant to be slightly stronger than normal cards.

I do agree that the x3 method does not work for large costs. Agreed, at some point the formula does not work properly anymore. I'm not exactly sure what math would be required to calculate the actual formula.
So based on your +1-3 for being other this needs to be balanced at 9-12 |9-12 . (same cost unupped as upgraded)

Regardless, the cost is going up. Cost changed to 9.

[QuantumT]

Cost needs to go to at least 12, probably 15. Just compare it with any of the other nymphs. Those will require 8-9 turns to play off of a single pillar. This will take 3. Same goes for ability cost.

Basically, the cost needs to go way up because of how easy it is to get quanta.

[Rutarete]

Cost needs to go to at least 12, probably 15. Just compare it with any of the other nymphs. Those will require 8-9 turns to play off of a single pillar. This will take 3. Same goes for ability cost.

Basically, the cost needs to go way up because of how easy it is to get quanta.

There's only one card that comes even close to 15 (disregarding fractal) - and that's an upped phase dragon. And with the stats being lowered and ability cost raised to 4, don't you think 15 is kind of a stretch? i don't think there are more than 3 cards that cost 10 or more

[QuantumT]

Cost needs to go to at least 12, probably 15. Just compare it with any of the other nymphs. Those will require 8-9 turns to play off of a single pillar. This will take 3. Same goes for ability cost.

Basically, the cost needs to go way up because of how easy it is to get quanta.

There's only one card that comes even close to 15 (disregarding fractal) - and that's an upped phase dragon. And with the stats being lowered and ability cost raised to 4, don't you think 15 is kind of a stretch? i don't think there are more than 3 cards that cost 10 or more

What's different in those is how easy they are to get. Other quanta just doesn't count the same way that regular quanta does. It's roughly 3 times easier to get than regular quanta. So something that costs 15 Other quanta is equivalent to about 5 regular quanta.

[ZephyrPhantom]

Cost needs to go to at least 12, probably 15. Just compare it with any of the other nymphs. Those will require 8-9 turns to play off of a single pillar. This will take 3. Same goes for ability cost.

Basically, the cost needs to go way up because of how easy it is to get quanta.

There's only one card that comes even close to 15 (disregarding fractal) - and that's an upped phase dragon. And with the stats being lowered and ability cost raised to 4, don't you think 15 is kind of a stretch? i don't think there are more than 3 cards that cost 10 or more

What's different in those is how easy they are to get. Other quanta just doesn't count the same way that regular quanta does. It's roughly 3 times easier to get than regular quanta. So something that costs 15 Other quanta is equivalent to about 5 regular quanta.

With reduced stats to 1 | 4 / 1 |6 , the cost should be at maximum 9.

I quote my previous calculuation to prove it:

*snip*
Here is my calculation of my own card:
Creature Cost = Attack + HP + Ability Threat + Bonuses
I may reduce the stats to 1 | 4 / 1 | 6 and make the ability cost 4. With changes:
Unupped
Attack : + 1
HP: +0 (1-5)
Ability Threat : + 3 (SoD on stick although you do take damage.), -1  for expensive ability, Final Value +2
Initial Value:3
Bonuses?: +1-3 due to being Other. I will add +3.
Final Cost :  6
If Alternate Theory for Other is applied: 3x quanta cost
Final cost : 9

Upped
Attack : + 1
HP: +1 (6-7)
Ability Threat : + 4 (Less damage.) -1  for expensive ability, Final Value +3
Bonuses?: +1-3 due to being Other. I will add +3, however -2 for upgrade.
Initial Value:3
Final Cost :  6
If Alternate Theory for Other is applied: 3x quanta cost
Final cost : 9
*snip*

[QuantumT]

Only because of your arbitrary choice that being other is only worth +3 quanta and that the repeated SoD ability is only worth 3. If you choose different values for those then it's cost changes. Also, you don't really get the expensive modifier because 4 other quanta is trivial.

Your formula doesn't really work for any of the nymphs. For example:

Purple Nymph

Attack: +3
Hp: +0
Ability: +x (AM on a stick) -1 (expensive)

Total cost= 2+x=9

So apparently AM on a stick is worth 7.

Gravity Nymph

Attack +1
HP +0
Ability +x (BH on a stick) -1 (expensive)

Total x=9

BH on a stick is worth 9.

Your value of 3 is low.

[ZephyrPhantom]

Only because of your arbitrary choice that being other is only worth +3 quanta and that the repeated SoD ability is only worth 3. If you choose different values for those then it's cost changes. Also, you don't really get the expensive modifier because 4 other quanta is trivial. I wasn't being arbitrary, I was trying to make a calcuation.

"The ability is probably worth +6 by itself on a stick" was my original thought, so I made it damage you while raising max hp to lower the value.  I thought that would make the value +3 instead, but it looks like I was wrong.  It seems to be worth more like +5 according to the argument raised.

Being other was worth +1-3 quanta was just something in general I thought would apply if you didn't want to use the 3x thing(because then an Other dragon would be 30 | 36 I'm not sure if that is justifiable unless you made the card broken.).  While it may also be inacurrate, it does prove something -

*snip*
I do agree that the x3 method does not work for large costs.

In response to your costs:
Antimatter itself is worth 8 | 6, so that's not really a valid argument.
Black Hole on the other hand is a pretty good point.

However, I find that when using OT's formula to analyze the Nymphs, I get different values. Upgraded Purple and Gravity Nymphs should have -1 cost if the theory is used, because +1 HP does not seem to justify the negation of the -1/-2 value.

Because of this upgrading inaccuracy, I will focus mainly on the unupgraded form.

You suggest that cost be 15 despite the stat lowerings. I see this as:

Unupped
Attack : + 1
HP: +0 (1-5)
Ability Threat : + 5 (Value + 1)  , -1  for expensive ability, Final Value + 4
If Suggested Theory for Other is applied: 3x quanta cost
Final cost : 15

However it takes away from the feel of it being a nymph because it is not 8 or 9 cost (I know that sounds stupid, but I think Nymphs should retain that trademark value)

* in the below quote indicate my thoughts

*This is all done based on unupgraded.*
Nymphs cost 7|6 *therefore 21 * + 1 pillar|tower *-7 (if you play a pillar each turn)* + 2 cards *-2(minimum with a Scrodinger's Cat and Soul Catcher since 2 is required to trigger the death effect)* +0|2 upgrades  +2 deck slots *-2(again minimum for Cat and Soul Catcher)* +2 draws*-2(1 draw is worth 1.5 quanta according to Precog)*. This cost is non negotiable. *Final Cost = 8*
This cost is deemed (whether it is or not) equivalent to 8-9|8-9 elemental quanta +1 card +0|1 upgrade +1 deck slot +1draw.
8/12 cost 8|8*Thus this seems to make sense*, 4/12 cost 9|9.

If my theory:+2-4 due to being Other. I will add +4. (Value + 1)
Final Cost :  9
But Why?
The main difficulty here is that There is no Other creature.
However, think back to what I said about the Other dragon. Will players really think a 30 | 36 cost is fair just because "it's Other" and deserves 3x for that?
Oldtrees has said that 3x quanta costs cannot apply to larger values. I agree with this, otherwise all Other will get in this game is really crap cards or superexpensive ones that are probably not worth playing even though they are "balanced".
Also, there's a discrepancy here. Other drains from all 12 quanta pools, therefore an Other card is worth 12 times as much as all other cards theorectically since you can drain from all 12 quanta pools. Yet Quantum Tower implies that Other is only worth 3x more because it only produces 3 random quanta in comparison to the standard pillar's 1.  So if I was to go by the book and balance the example "Other Dragon" correctly, it would cost 120 | 144?
Clearly no, because Zanz had already reduced Other's worth by limiting it with a pillar.
I will now attempt to balance a Short Sword in relation to a Vampire Dagger to find a ratio between weapons using Nepycros's formula of Weapons.
Short Sword
Permanent Cost =
Type: Weapon, -3
Attack: +3
HP (if animated): +0 (1-5)
Final Value= 0

Vampire Dagger
Permanent Cost=
Type: Weapon, -3
Attack +4
HP(If animated): +0 (1-5)
Ability Value: +0
Final Value = 1

Note that according to this Short Sword should be 0, which is even lower than it's current cost of 1 . If both cards were creatures we would have a cost 3 Short Sword Creature and a cost 4 Vampire Dagger creature. Now, if I apply 3x to Short Sword, we would have an 9 Short Sword creature vs. a 4 Vampire Dagger creature.    If you apply 3x cost on Short Sword as it currently is the cost should be 2 or 3 in that case. If I use Hammer or Short Bow
instead -
Hammer/Short Bow
Permanent Cost =
Type: Weapon, -3
Attack: +3
Ability Value: +1 (there is no value for this in Oldtrees's notes, but if an Upgraded Farenheit only gets +1 damage, then +1 damage for a weapon should be worth +1)
HP (if animated): +0 (1-5, but keep in mind it has +2 HP)
Final Value= +1
The result would be a 12 Hammer/Short Bow creature. So an other creature is worth on average 5-8 quanta more. If divided by three, you get 1.6-2.6, which rounds to about +2-3.  Zanz adds +1 to the weapon cost, which is even less than the weapon is supposed to receive.  In other words, all non-pillar Other cards are underpriced.