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Elements the Game => Level 1 - Crucible => Card Ideas and Art => Crucible Archive => Topic started by: the Sage on August 12, 2010, 02:21:22 pm

Title: Sea urchin | Sea Urchin (Elite)
Post by: the Sage on August 12, 2010, 02:21:22 pm
(http://imgur.com/5t1bV.png)
(http://imgur.com/RvAaJ.png)
NAME:
Sea Urchin
ELEMENT:
Water
COST:
1 :water
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
0|1
ABILITY:
Stepped on:
One grounded attacking creature is infected and delayed for one turn.
Sea Urchin is destroyed.
NAME:
Sea Urchin
ELEMENT:
Water
COST:
1 :water
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
0|1
ABILITY:
Stepped on:
One grounded attacking creature is infected and delayed for one turn.
Sea Urchin takes one damage.
ART:
the Sage
IDEA:
the Sage
NOTES:
The image is an original photograph by myself.
SERIES:
N/A
Title: Re: Sea urchin | Sea Urchin (Elite)
Post by: the Sage on August 12, 2010, 02:21:58 pm
Changelog:

No longer affects flying creatures.
Upgraded went from 2 hp to 1 hp, and from 2 :water to 1 :water cost.
Title: Re: Sea urchin | Sea Urchin (Elite)
Post by: Kuroaitou on August 12, 2010, 09:10:29 pm
All of the Animated Weapons would like to have a word with you (how can a 'weapon' step on this little guy?!). :P

I like the fact that this is more of a 'reactionary' creature in that playing this card means that the opponent either has to get rid of him quickly or deal with the infect part of the Sea Urchin. Sundial makes another interesting counter for this guy as well.

Questions though: is the 'Stepped On' ability random, or is it based on which creature attacks first in the rotation/screen? For the upgraded card, if there were buffs placed onto the Sea Urchin (say, Basilisk's Blood), does that mean that it'll continuously infect creatures for as long as it's alive?
Title: Re: Sea urchin | Sea Urchin (Elite)
Post by: the Sage on August 13, 2010, 08:42:05 am
All of the Animated Weapons would like to have a word with you (how can a 'weapon' step on this little guy?!). :P
You are right. It should of course be non-airbourne creatures. =)
By the way, we really need a term for non-airbourne that is shorter!

I like the fact that this is more of a 'reactionary' creature in that playing this card means that the opponent either has to get rid of him quickly or deal with the infect part of the Sea Urchin. Sundial makes another interesting counter for this guy as well.
Thanks, me too! =D

Questions though: is the 'Stepped On' ability random, or is it based on which creature attacks first in the rotation/screen?
Hadn't really thought about it. I personally pictured it completely random. Also, otherwise the upped version or multiple of the unupped would keep targeting the same creature. Also, it only gets stepped on once per turn.

For the upgraded card, if there were buffs placed onto the Sea Urchin (say, Basilisk's Blood), does that mean that it'll continuously infect creatures for as long as it's alive?
Yes, that was the idea. However, I didn't consider basilisk blood (was thinking more along the lines of bless, chaos power, healing angel (!) etc). As a balance consideration, an Otyugh with Basilisk blood will do far worse than continually infect creatures, and it will gain hp (and attack) along the way instead of losing hp.

Comparing this to Otyughs reminds me: quinted/burrowed creatures. I would say they are also affected, since this ability targets attacking creatures (think carapace/turtle shield). As such, I think the upgraded version does need a nerf. I'm thinking either increasing the cost (which makes for an all-round nerf) or decreasing the hp to 1 (which focuses more on the synergy with buffs, making it worse than the unupped for a mono water deck). What are your thoughts on this?
Title: Re: Sea urchin | Sea Urchin (Elite)
Post by: Kuroaitou on August 13, 2010, 10:43:44 pm
You are right. It should of course be non-airbourne creatures. =)
By the way, we really need a term for non-airbourne that is shorter!
Thesaurus.com works wonders. ;)

Yes, that was the idea. However, I didn't consider basilisk blood (was thinking more along the lines of bless, chaos power, healing angel (!) etc). As a balance consideration, an Otyugh with Basilisk blood will do far worse than continually infect creatures, and it will gain hp (and attack) along the way instead of losing hp.

Comparing this to Otyughs reminds me: quinted/burrowed creatures. I would say they are also affected, since this ability targets attacking creatures (think carapace/turtle shield). As such, I think the upgraded version does need a nerf. I'm thinking either increasing the cost (which makes for an all-round nerf) or decreasing the hp to 1 (which focuses more on the synergy with buffs, making it worse than the unupped for a mono water deck). What are your thoughts on this?
I agree about the balance comparison for the use of Basilisk Blood on an Otyugh versus the Urchin.

As for mono-water, Permafrost shield 'technically' can counter burrowed and immortalized creatures, but does no damage in comparison to Fire Shield/Thorn Carapace. Flooding also doesn't affect them - if you reduce the HP down to 1, what are the odds of infected an immortalized creatures when several of them are on the board? Assuming that they're all attacking, you may infect the wrong one (i.e. - with a board filled with Phase Recluses and an Elite Phase Dragon, guess which one is going to die in 2 turns). Then this card becomes overly luck based depending on how your opponent plays his creatures (and which ones are quinted).

However, I think reducing the HP can be beneficial for people who love buffing mechanics (Blessing, Momentum, etc.), and it would also bring a really annoying synergy between Earth and Water (Flooding + Poseidon + Permafrost (all the permanents enchanted with PA) + these guys with +20 HP from basilisk's blood + other heavy hitters). Then again, considering how limited it is to use the newly implemented cards (Dune Scorpion, Death Stalker) without the use of buffs, you may want to analyze whether or not reducing its HP is the best idea in the current game environment.

(No matter what though, I'd say you should reduce the cost to 1 :water for both cards. The guy is stuck on the bottom of the sea that can't even attack, and can be easily destroyed (or eaten!) by anything)
Title: Re: Sea urchin | Sea Urchin (Elite)
Post by: philipsballs on August 14, 2010, 12:21:04 am
not a bad idea. nice.
Title: Re: Sea urchin | Sea Urchin (Elite)
Post by: Legit on August 14, 2010, 12:47:36 am
You are right. It should of course be non-airbourne creatures. =)
By the way, we really need a term for non-airbourne that is shorter!

What about grounded (creatures)?

Also, I agree with Kuroaitou's idea that it should cost 1 :water for both versions. I like the card idea too
Title: Re: Sea urchin | Sea Urchin (Elite)
Post by: the Sage on August 14, 2010, 09:03:34 am
oops, meant to modify this but reposted instead.  ;)
Title: Re: Sea urchin | Sea Urchin (Elite)
Post by: the Sage on August 14, 2010, 09:14:00 am
Also, I agree with Kuroaitou's idea that it should cost 1 :water for both versions. I like the card idea too
Thanks for the nice feedback people!
I don't know about the 1 cost. I compare it to retrovirus; this also costs 2 :death where virus costs 1 :death. Then again, that affects all creatures where this affects 2 unbuffed. Although I hate that this is always an issue: consider what fractal does. Each of these kills 2 creatures.

What I might do is make the upgraded one cost 1 :water, and have 1 hp too. That would make it the same as unupped, except now making buffs a viable synergy. I like the symmetry that gives.  :)

What about grounded (creatures)?
What I meant was not so much that we need to find a word (though I didn't think of one), as that we need to have community consensus regarding a term. I agree with legit that grounded works well.
Title: Re: Sea urchin | Sea Urchin (Elite)
Post by: Rainbowz on August 15, 2010, 11:32:48 am
Hmm it fits waters synergy with poison, and realistic, i like it.
Title: Re: Sea urchin | Sea Urchin (Elite)
Post by: the Sage on August 16, 2010, 03:32:33 pm
The guy is stuck on the bottom of the sea that can't even attack, and can be easily destroyed (or eaten!) by anything)
Hmm, maybe 'infect if devoured' would be an appropriate addition. Too bad there's no room on the card.
Title: Re: Sea urchin | Sea Urchin (Elite)
Post by: Astraic on August 16, 2010, 04:37:11 pm
im not sure if its a mistake but
isn;t the upgrade the same thing?
even though it takes 1 damage it would still die.....
just like how the 1st one is destroyed
Title: Re: Sea urchin | Sea Urchin (Elite)
Post by: the Sage on August 17, 2010, 10:37:02 am
im not sure if its a mistake but isnt the upgrade the same thing?
Even though it takes 1 damage it would still die..... just like how the first one is destroyed.
I understand your confusion, because the difference is quite subtle.
They are not quite the same; the difference lies in the fact that if you use heavy armor/bless/momentum/chaos power/basilisk blood, the unupgraded version will still die when stepped on. The upgraded version will live, allowing it to infect and delay another creature on the next turn.
Title: Re: Sea urchin | Sea Urchin (Elite)
Post by: Astraic on August 17, 2010, 11:24:56 am
kk then i think its AWESOME!
Title: Re: Sea urchin | Sea Urchin (Elite)
Post by: Lanidrak on August 18, 2010, 11:14:41 am
Overall. I like the idea.

One thing is puzzling me though.

I have 2 Sea Urchins in play. Both Upgraded.
One has 0/7 (I plate armored him)
Other has 0/1 (I couldn't afford plate armor)

My opponent is attacking with:
One 5/5 Elite Cockatrice (with Adrenaline)
Three 2/2 Elite Skeletons

What happens next?

a) Two skeletons take 1 poison counter. Urchin One takes 1 damage. Urchin Two dies.
b) The Cockatrice takes 3 poison counters. Urchin One takes 3 damage.
c) Each Skeleton takes 1 poison counter, the Cockatrice takes 3 poison counters. Urchin 1 takes 6 damage?

Title: Re: Sea urchin | Sea Urchin (Elite)
Post by: Astraic on August 18, 2010, 01:42:21 pm
Overall. I like the idea.

One thing is puzzling me though.

I have 2 Sea Urchins in play. Both Upgraded.
One has 0/7 (I plate armored him)
Other has 0/1 (I couldn't afford plate armor)

My opponent is attacking with:
One 5/5 Elite Cockatrice (with Adrenaline)
Three 2/2 Elite Skeletons

What happens next?

a) Two skeletons take 1 poison counter. Urchin One takes 1 damage. Urchin Two dies.
b) The Cockatrice takes 3 poison counters. Urchin One takes 3 damage.
c) Each Skeleton takes 1 poison counter, the Cockatrice takes 3 poison counters. Urchin 1 takes 6 damage?
i think it would depend...
im not sure but its just like the order you play your monsters is the order they attack....
when i had 2 purple nymphs one of them was antimattered another wasn't and my opponent had 8 HP..... for sum reason the antimattered one attacked 1st...........
so im guessing which ever one you played 1st will be the one getting affected if it dies it goes to the 2nd one
Title: Re: Sea urchin | Sea Urchin (Elite)
Post by: Lanidrak on August 18, 2010, 01:56:03 pm
So, in that case.

A Sea Urchin works like a Armaggio?

Each attacking creature attacks like normal, in order. If a Sea Urchin is in play, for each "Grounded Attacking" creature, the Sea Urchin takes 1 damage and the attacking creature takes 1 poison. This would continue until the Sea Urchin died. Different to the Armaggio, in that the Sea Urchin takes 1 damage regardless of the Attacking Creatures attack power - a bit like a Bone Wall. Whereas the Armaggio takes full damage.

If this is the case. I don't truly understand the benefit of this card. Especially considering that a Plague, or a Retrovirus can poison EVERY enemy creature, air-born or grounded - for very little cost.

The only benefit of this card would be to poison Immaterial or Immortal creatures. But, that is extremely luck dependent on the order in which they have been put into play.



The overcome this problem I suggest that the card does instant damage (like a fire buckler) and applies a stasis effect (like procrastination).

Give it an HP increase, so that it can affect more than 1 creature.

Maybe, something like:

Sea Urchin (normal)
Stats: 0/3
Ability: Attacking Grounded creatures take 1 damage and are stasis for 1 turn. Sea Urchin takes 1 damage per attacker.

Sea Urchin (upgraded)
Stats: 0/5
Ability: Attacking Grounded creatures take 1 damage and are stasis for 1 turn. Sea Urchin takes 1 damage per attacker.
Title: Re: Sea urchin | Sea Urchin (Elite)
Post by: the Sage on August 18, 2010, 10:12:29 pm
I have 2 Sea Urchins in play. Both Upgraded.
One has 0/7 (I plate armored him)
Other has 0/1 (I couldn't afford plate armor)
My opponent is attacking with:
One 5/5 Elite Cockatrice (with Adrenaline)
Three 2/2 Elite Skeletons
What happens next?
a) Two skeletons take 1 poison counter. Urchin One takes 1 damage. Urchin Two dies.
b) The Cockatrice takes 3 poison counters. Urchin One takes 3 damage.
c) Each Skeleton takes 1 poison counter, the Cockatrice takes 3 poison counters. Urchin 1 takes 6 damage?
d) One enemy steps on Urchin 1. It loses 1 hp; enemy delayed and infected.
One other enemy steps on Urchin 2. It losts 1 hp (dies); enemy is delayed and infected.
If either enemy was the cockatrice, it is delayed, so the adrenaline attacks do not take place.
Either way, each urchin is stepped on only once per turn.
On the next turn, 2 enemies will be delayed, and only the third will attack, stepping on Urchin 1.

If this is the case. I don't truly understand the benefit of this card. Especially considering that a Plague, or a Retrovirus can poison EVERY enemy creature, air-born or grounded - for very little cost.
Basically, it's dirt cheap creature control with buff potential. Unupped plague costs 4 :death. Upped retro or plague still costs 2 :death. Also, death is all about killing creatures and already has cheap ways to do so. This is water. =)
The buffed Urchin works on creatures that your opponent hasn't played yet, meaning you can use it pre-emptively.
It applies stasis AND deals 1 damage per turn (stasis meaning an extra damage).

As a 1  :water cost card, I'd prefer the unupped to freeze (because it's lethal). Toadfish only works in an air duo, but I guess ice lance might be better overall since it also costs 1 and has faster damage potential.
Admittedly, the upped is only better than the unupped when buffing, making it less suitable for a water mono.

So, in that case.
A Sea Urchin works like a Armaggio?
It's not like Armagio; if you've buffed the upgraded one, it still affects only one creature per turn.
I have to admit that overall it's more likely to be (slightly) UP than OP at the moment. The grounded part makes it not stop dragons, which is a shame (but I can't imagine something that sits on the ocean floor stopping a dragon because it steps on it.
If the community thinks this card is UP (see poll), I might consider still increasing both creatures to 2 hp (which doesn't help the unupped much, but doubles the unbuffed upped).

I understand the tendency people have to make any new card idea higher in power than most existing cards, but I'd prefer something that fills a niche, adds an interesting flavor/game mechanic, but does not increase the overall power (except by adding card options and thus flexibility).
Title: Re: Sea urchin | Sea Urchin (Elite)
Post by: Lanidrak on August 18, 2010, 10:44:12 pm
Personally I think it should work like Armaggio.

Yeah, at 1hp it will only ever effect 1 creature and then die. Unless it is buffed.

Otherwise, just trust me. It is extremely under-powered as it is. Sure, it's some cheap Creature Control card that does a bit of poison and a stasis effect... But CC also stands for Crowd Control... which is usually applied to cards such as Rain of Fire or Thunderstorm, and sometimes an Otyugh or Eagle Eye (because they can, over time, kill lots of creatures).

If you were to make this card work like a 'Gravity Pull' effect (for grounded creatures) ie. just like Armaggio. Then it has the potential to be really useful. But, it would only gain this potential from being in a Duo or Trio deck. It is balanced, because it only effects Grounded creatures.

The reason I am laboring this point is because... it is rare that someone will try and kill you with only 2 or 3 creatures. The Sea Urchin (as it is) can only ever stop 1 attack per turn. So you will need 6 in play to stop 6 attacks per turn.  And you would have to buff them repeatedly to keep enjoying this pause in incoming attacks.

Compare this to a Sundial - which stops ALL attacks for 1 turn.

If it were to work like an Armaggio (but take 1 damage per attacker), you could buff a Sea Urchin with a Basilisks Blood, Blessing, or Plate Armor and then it alone can stop a wave of attacks. This would give Water a few synergy options. Not to mention a very nice way of dealing with Immaterial and Immortal attackers.

My final question would be, what about Momentum creatures? Gravity Pull works like a 'Shield Effect' which Momentum ignores. I suggest - for further balance - that a Momentum'd creature ignore a Sea Urchin - my reasoning is that it is under such a momentum that a prick from a sea urchin will not stop it from attacking.
Title: Re: Sea urchin | Sea Urchin (Elite)
Post by: the Sage on August 19, 2010, 01:53:19 pm
The reason I am laboring this point is because... it is rare that someone will try and kill you with only 2 or 3 creatures. The Sea Urchin (as it is) can only ever stop 1 attack per turn. So you will need 6 in play to stop 6 attacks per turn.  And you would have to buff them repeatedly to keep enjoying this pause in incoming attacks.
Well, you can play more than one; they can stop 1 attack per turn per creature, AND they will kill.
I guess that if you want to affect up to 12 creatures every turn, you could play 6 buffed versions of these. (because it also stalls for 1 turn, you only need one every other attack).
What I could do is change it so that the CURRENT attack is stopped, and the creature is infected. This  makes sense in terms of mechanics and allows a creature to be stopped every turn instead of every other turn. It does not, however, prevent the use of abililties, which delay does.

If it were to work like an Armaggio (but take 1 damage per attacker), you could buff a Sea Urchin with a Basilisks Blood, Blessing, or Plate Armor and then it alone can stop a wave of attacks. This would give Water a few synergy options. Not to mention a very nice way of dealing with Immaterial and Immortal attackers.
This would make it better than Armagio. I think that's a bit much for a 1 :water creature.

My final question would be, what about Momentum creatures? Gravity Pull works like a 'Shield Effect' which Momentum ignores. I suggest - for further balance - that a Momentum'd creature ignore a Sea Urchin - my reasoning is that it is under such a momentum that a prick from a sea urchin will not stop it from attacking.
Agreed. Momentum bypasses this.
blarg: