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Offline odidephTopic starter

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Refuse | Refuse https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42219.msg525114#msg525114
« on: July 24, 2012, 09:15:54 pm »
NAME:
Refuse
ELEMENT:
Other
COST:
1
TYPE:
Spell
ATK|HP:

TEXT:
Kill target creature. Lose triple the creature's combined attack and HP. The victim's type can't be played next turn.
NAME:
Refuse
ELEMENT:
Other
COST:
0
TYPE:
Spell
ATK|HP:

TEXT:
Kill target creature. Lose triple the creature's combined attack and HP. The victim's type can't be played next turn.

ART:
odideph
IDEA:
odideph
NOTES:
Details: "the victim's type" stands for "the exact type of creature that you killed with Refuse".
Like if you refused a Photon, the enemy can't play any Photons next turn, but he can play anything else.

This is a way to get rid of majorly annoying enemy creatures early in the game.

Example:
1) The enemy plays some random creature with 1 HP and 0 attack, and plays a Minor Phoenix too.
2) I don't have any quanta yet, so i cast upped Refuse on it instead of my other CC cards. The creature dies and i lose 3*(0+1) = 3 HP.
3) Same turn, I cast Refuse on the Minor Phoenix. I lose 3*(4+1) = 15 HP, and the Minor Phoenix becomes an Ash.
4) It's now the enemy's turn. For this turn, he cannot play creatures of the same types that i Refused.


The cost is mainly your own HP, and it works like Shard of Sacrifice: it's not damage, you directly lose HP and Shard of Sacrifice will not turn that into healing.

To get rid of creatures with mid to high stats, you could end up paying more HP than necessary. Killing dragons with this should not be worth it.

It is meant as a solution for some earlygame situations where a cheap, spammed creature prevents you from doing anything.

I imagine Refuse could also be used in stall decks with huge HP as a way to get rid of the enemy's most dangerous creatures before they get too high stats.
SERIES:


Spoiler for "Old wording":
Kill target creature. Lose 3*N HP: N is the creature's HP + attack. This type of creature can't be played next turn.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 02:38:22 pm by odideph »

Offline Drake_XIV

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Re: Refuse|Refuse https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42219.msg525115#msg525115
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2012, 09:16:44 pm »
Hm, Instakill...

Offline furballdn

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Re: Refuse|Refuse https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42219.msg525116#msg525116
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2012, 09:17:09 pm »
First glance: Way too complicated.

Offline odidephTopic starter

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Re: Refuse|Refuse https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42219.msg525118#msg525118
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2012, 09:25:10 pm »
Hm, Instakill...

I guess only Maxwell's demon is allowed to do this?... I can always find something less powerful.

First glance: Way too complicated.

I can understand that... At least all the data is there, no wiki needed like for Panda, Permafrost or Skull Shield, or cards that make other cards  :D
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 09:26:57 pm by odideph »

Offline DigitalHero07

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Re: Refuse|Refuse https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42219.msg525130#msg525130
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2012, 09:58:24 pm »
This + SoSa = :o
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Re: Refuse|Refuse https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42219.msg525170#msg525170
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2012, 12:49:01 am »
This + SoSa = :o
Are you talking about that? :
Quote
The cost is mainly your own HP, and it works like Shard of Sacrifice: it's not damage, you directly lose HP and Shard of Sacrifice will not turn that into healing.
Feel free to check edit dates...

Offline Naesala

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Re: Refuse|Refuse https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42219.msg525183#msg525183
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2012, 01:57:05 am »
Seems simple enough to me. And while instakill is frowned upon, it's only when it ignores HP. This factors HP in, so it should be fine.
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Offline furballdn

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Re: Refuse|Refuse https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42219.msg525184#msg525184
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2012, 02:00:45 am »
Taking a closer look. This basically kills a creature in exchange for the creature attacking 3 times. Sort of like casting adren on an opponent's creature. From that, I can say that it is probably balanced (Games take around 5-7 turns, killing a creature for 3x its stats in damage is not OP). "This type of creature can't be played next turn" Why does a card need this? It feels like it's more complicated than it needs be. Finally, this is in other. You know how hard it is to balance card ideas in other. Then again, I'm pretty sure someone made a card idea where it would kill a creature, in return, the creature would get a few hits off free.

Offline Naesala

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Re: Refuse|Refuse https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42219.msg525190#msg525190
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2012, 02:38:21 am »
Would the following make better card text? "Kill Target creature. Lose triple the creature's combined attack and HP. Copys of target creature can't be played next turn" The formula is the same, but makes it easier to read.
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Re: Refuse|Refuse https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42219.msg525228#msg525228
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2012, 05:22:52 am »
Hm, Instakill...
I guess only Maxwell's demon is allowed to do this?... I can always find something less powerful.
Instakills in Elements are either conditional (e.g. damage done by spell exceeds target's HP, Maxwell's Demon only killing creatures that have higher attack than HP, Otyugh only killing creatures with fewer HP than itself, Flooding only killing non-Water creatures after the first 5 slots, etc.) or require multiple cards -- with at least one of them not be repeatedly accessible -- (e.g. Freeze + Shockwave).
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Offline odidephTopic starter

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Re: Refuse|Refuse https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42219.msg525262#msg525262
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2012, 07:56:09 am »
Taking a closer look. This basically kills a creature in exchange for the creature attacking 3 times. Sort of like casting adren on an opponent's creature. From that, I can say that it is probably balanced (Games take around 5-7 turns, killing a creature for 3x its stats in damage is not OP). "This type of creature can't be played next turn" Why does a card need this? It feels like it's more complicated than it needs be. Finally, this is in other. You know how hard it is to balance card ideas in other. Then again, I'm pretty sure someone made a card idea where it would kill a creature, in return, the creature would get a few hits off free.

1)That's kind of the deal, but it counts HP too. No free Voodoo Doll killing, and such.
2)The whole "can't be played next turn" comes directly from the intended purpose: avoiding being locked down by that specific type of creature for a small amount of time, at all costs. Yes it makes it more complicated, but i thought it was a waste to Refuse a Devourer draining your only pillar (and they start the very turn you play them) or a Sofo not letting you play anything, if the enemy can just toss another next turn... If Refuse is deemed overpowered, that is the part i'll remove, and propose another card concept based entirely off that.
3)Well i'd like to see that card, i might need to stay as much as possible away from it so that Refuse doesn't look like a copy.


Would the following make better card text? "Kill Target creature. Lose triple the creature's combined attack and HP. Copys of target creature can't be played next turn" The formula is the same, but makes it easier to read.

I was afraid that wouldn't fit in the allowed space, and checked. It was indeed slightly too long, this is what i could fit in:
"Kill target creature. Lose triple the creature's combined attack and HP. The victim's type can't be played next turn."
Should i reword it this way?

Hm, Instakill...
I guess only Maxwell's demon is allowed to do this?... I can always find something less powerful.
Instakills in Elements are either conditional (e.g. damage done by spell exceeds target's HP, Maxwell's Demon only killing creatures that have higher attack than HP, Otyugh only killing creatures with fewer HP than itself, Flooding only killing non-Water creatures after the first 5 slots, etc.) or require multiple cards -- with at least one of them not be repeatedly accessible -- (e.g. Freeze + Shockwave).

Hmmm i got struck by the similarity with otyugh when reading you tbh: Refuse's condition is to be able to pay the HP cost, basically (can't be reflected or turned into healing, scales massively with target creature's stats). I think it's a good way to look at it, what do you think?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 08:03:23 am by odideph »

Offline Naesala

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Re: Refuse|Refuse https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42219.msg525592#msg525592
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2012, 02:04:46 am »
I think that rewording would benefit everyone.
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