Redeemer | Zealot

[SnoWeb]

NAME: Redeemer ELEMENT: Light COST: 3 TYPE: Creature ATK|HP: 2|3 TEXT: : Convert - the ability of the target permanent is now triggered with .	NAME: Zealot ELEMENT: Light COST: 3 TYPE: Creature ATK|HP: 4|2 TEXT: : Convert - the ability of the target permanent is now triggered with .

ART: http://www.sxc.hu/photo/989644 IDEA: SnoWeb (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,26141.0.html) NOTES: : Convert - the ability of the target permanent is now triggered with . This obviously only works on permanents with an actively triggered ability (mindgate, hourglass, pulveriser, etc...). The amount of quanta to be spent stays the same but said quanta are now . Obviously is in itself a very smooth PC. However, combined with steal it takes a sharper edge. SERIES: Opposing elements duos as soft PC (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,27050.0.html)

[Manipul8r]

Lobotomy for permanents, quite powerful.  Why does it cost to convert something to ?  Why does the upgraded one have less HP?  Survivability is quite valuable on a creature with reusable PC.

[SnoWeb]

Lobotomy for permanents, quite powerful.

If you like it you should have a look at Dust Tornado | Dust Twister (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,26803.0.html).

Why does it cost to convert something to ?

It has to do with the theme Redeemer are generally known to be extremists. They convert the heretics to their faith with methods quite remote from their original faith. Their faith is in this case Light and therefore they use dark methods to achieve the conversion. You see what I meant?

Why does the upgraded one have less HP?  Survivability is quite valuable on a creature with reusable PC.

Here again it has to do with the theme. For me zealots sacrifice every to their faith. It means then that their aim is to convert or to kill first and then only to have a thought to their own security. Does it make sense?

[Manipul8r]

I prefer this card to Dust Tornado, although this does heavily reward players who have quanta.

Sounds good, but the reasoning doesn't validate the lower HP, just that the ATK should be higher and/or the ability cheaper or more powerful.  The HP should at least stay the same for the purpose of balance, even if it does do more damage (such as with Archangel).  For example, if Mind Flayer had more HP than its upgrade but its upgrade had more ATK, I would always use the unupgraded Mind Flayer for the extra odds of it surviving to Lobotomize another day.  I feel like upgraded cards are supposed to be more powerful with regards to their function, not just in general.  2

[SnoWeb]

[...] this does heavily reward players who have quanta.

Which looks fine for a light card.

Sounds good, but the reasoning doesn't validate the lower HP, just that the ATK should be higher and/or the ability cheaper or more powerful.  The HP should at least stay the same for the purpose of balance, even if it does do more damage (such as with Archangel).  For example, if Mind Flayer had more HP than its upgrade but its upgrade had more ATK, I would always use the unupgraded Mind Flayer for the extra odds of it surviving to Lobotomize another day.  I feel like upgraded cards are supposed to be more powerful with regards to their function, not just in general.  2

The comparison with with Mind Flayer | Ulitharid is adequate (duo card, lobotomy, low cost). The thing is that Ulitharid cost 3 whereas Mind Flayer 2 rendering the upped version slower than the unupped. I personally never use ulitharid (only Mind Flayer) as a lobotomy one turn earlier is more important than 1HP (particularly below 4). I wanted to avoid this paradox with this card and still play on the stats for the upgrade. I wanted that both card keep the same cost. Few creature have two attacks more upped than unupped (and they generally cost 1 more quanta - see GotP).
When the zealot Idea came to me I thought it might do. 2 or 3 HP makes extremely few difference against classical CC spells. It only has an impact against poison and aggressive shields (fire and skull shield/buckler as well as thorn carapace). Moreover, most of the / duos also contain blessing. With this card, the Zealot turns into a nice midrange attacker for light: 7|5 with a quite powerful ability. Making it countered by lightning then had sense.

However, if more people think like you do, I might revise my thought. Let see what they say ...

[Manipul8r]

You said 2 or 3 HP makes little difference, but then said that Blessing makes it a 7|5.  If it had 1 more HP, it would be a 7|6 and thus Lightning would not instantly kill it if it were blessed.  Regardless of the metagame, I think designing a card with lower HP upgraded is kind of silly.  It's fine to be unique, but I just don't see the reason for it in this case.  I would think to have lower HP when upgraded it would need an ability that plays off of it's HP.  Off the top of my head, the only thing I can think of is if it's ATK was based on HP, such as ATK=10-(2*HP).

Also, I meant that it rewards players as in an opponent playing is not really affected by the card, which buffs Light in general.

[SnoWeb]

Also, I meant that it rewards players as in an opponent playing is not really affected by the card, which buffs Light in general.

I understood that as you said. It goes in the same way that the use of the combo GotP/nightmares rewards the Time players or the use of nightfall rewards the Death and Darkness players. I see nothing wrong in it.

Regardless of the metagame, I think designing a card with lower HP upgraded is kind of silly.  It's fine to be unique, but I just don't see the reason for it in this case.

What about minor phoenix and micro-abomination? They open new play style without being strictly better than the non-upgraded version. In this case, I think 2 more atk worth 1 less HP and 1 upgrade (without change in cost). Moreover, the card carries an additional particularity which makes it more interesting IMO. I understand your point Manipul8r and I greatly appreciate yours comments. I just would like to have other opinions before I change what I think is an interesting twist to the classical upgrade.

[Manipul8r]

I'd love to hear other peoples' opinions too, and I know you get what I'm saying.  I must point out, Micro Abomination and Minor Phoenix are vastly different in cost from their unupgraded counterparts, which is the main reason for their lower stats.  Although they do lend to different playstyles and roles, it's more because of their costs than their stats.

[coinich]

Perhaps one way of looking at it is that the stat difference isn't varied as widely between the two.  I like the reasoning for Zealot, but perhaps make the attack higher?  Light doesn't have a solid mid-range creature; Pegasus and Crusader fit the bill but at the expense of a different mark and/or more cards.  Zealot could help fill that gap while Redeemer could be a 1 less cost and reversed stats.  I do really like the idea though.