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Jaxly

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Re: Quantum Rush | Quantum Rush https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5174.msg54476#msg54476
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2010, 10:53:14 pm »
First off I really like the cards function. I think it would free a huge amount of strategies from inside the rainbow cage. Its the theme of the card that I'd have a problem with.

Theme – 5/5
Does the theme of the card fit the Elements environment? Yes. Pillars are allready a key part of elements the game. A spell to flash a pillar into play is quite within theme.

It might just be me but I view elementals as requiring sources of worship to gain power. A bit like how small Gods are portrayed in Terry Pratchetts Discworld series. Pillars and towers would be constructs raised to them, taking time to amass and develop into a steady powerhouse. Immolation and cremation would be sacrafices made to them, granting sudden bursts of power. Novas would be great celestial events that would result in a burst of awe at the elementals glory, lending belief and hence power. What you're suggesting is an elemental who does not require an outside force in order to gain power, but has the ability to make that power simply appear. Philosophically speaking worshipped beings cannot create their own power, but must guide others to make it for them. Sorry if I'm reading into this too much but it doesn't hold true with what I see as the power system in the game. Again, great card function :) (btw I completely accept that other people probably have very different views of the game, just throwing this out there)

Re: Quantum Rush | Quantum Rush https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5174.msg54802#msg54802
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2010, 04:50:49 pm »
The value of 3 is critical to the turnover of quanta being correct to cast out of element cards. It is plausible that the single quanta windfall is too much and increase the speed of the game by too much. In this case to balance we would increase the deployment cost.
Why is the value of 3 important? You could choose every number of gained number as long as you would increase the cost of the card. The important value is the number of quanta, you really gained by the card.
That's why the increasing of the cost or the decreasing the amount of gained quanta have a similar effect. You reduces amount of the finally gained quanta.
But when you're increasing the costs of the card, the card will be played later in the game and lose in my eyes more of her impact in the game as it would be with decreased quanta gain.

airframe

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Re: Quantum Rush | Quantum Rush https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5174.msg55404#msg55404
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2010, 10:07:01 pm »
Why is the value of 3 important?
I would also be interested in why exactly this is a critical point.

( Yes, in mtg dark ritual is awesome card.)


Edit: My english fails me...

Downsociety

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Re: Quantum Rush | Quantum Rush https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5174.msg55418#msg55418
« Reply #27 on: April 18, 2010, 10:38:12 pm »
All is good except the art is less than admirable and not that original.

Kael Hate

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Re: Quantum Rush | Quantum Rush https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5174.msg55617#msg55617
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2010, 05:13:05 am »
First off I really like the cards function. I think it would free a huge amount of strategies from inside the rainbow cage. Its the theme of the card that I'd have a problem with.

Theme – 5/5
Does the theme of the card fit the Elements environment? Yes. Pillars are allready a key part of elements the game. A spell to flash a pillar into play is quite within theme.

It might just be me but I view elementals as requiring sources of worship to gain power. A bit like how small Gods are portrayed in Terry Pratchetts Discworld series. Pillars and towers would be constructs raised to them, taking time to amass and develop into a steady powerhouse. Immolation and cremation would be sacrafices made to them, granting sudden bursts of power. Novas would be great celestial events that would result in a burst of awe at the elementals glory, lending belief and hence power. What you're suggesting is an elemental who does not require an outside force in order to gain power, but has the ability to make that power simply appear. Philosophically speaking worshipped beings cannot create their own power, but must guide others to make it for them. Sorry if I'm reading into this too much but it doesn't hold true with what I see as the power system in the game. Again, great card function :) (btw I completely accept that other people probably have very different views of the game, just throwing this out there)
Thats an interesting view. Doesn't really match mine tho. Elements aren't gods.

From the evidence I've seen in the game Elementals (The Player Characters) are simply creatures of focused energy. To gather more power the Elemental has to build a tool or force a conversion to gain that energy. The simple version of this is constructing a Pillar. The internal mechanics of the pillar gather a particular energy from the Environment for the Elemental to use.

More complex variations are Nova and Cremate. They work by the elemental putting a conjuncture into effect and harvesting the results. The Quantum rush is an example of this, allowing the elemental while creating a pillar to put a conjuncture into effect and gain a particular type of elemental energy at the same time.

I can understand if you don't see things this way. Any suggestions on what to change or do you think the card should be denied altogether because of the theme issue?


The value of 3 is critical to the turnover of quanta being correct to cast out of element cards. It is plausible that the single quanta windfall is too much and increase the speed of the game by too much. In this case to balance we would increase the deployment cost.
Why is the value of 3 important?
Why is the value of 3 important?
I would also be interested in why exactly this is a critical point.
There is a great deal of maths to it. Here are the simple points to it.

Card activators are often 1-2 in cost.
Power cards from the various elements fall into prime cost slots of 1, 2, 3, 5, 7
The Fibonachi numbers represent the activator group values and and the inherence of game stepup, these fall into slots 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13

Using these values and the divisor as the production of the card we get

Code: [Select]
1 2 3 5 7 11
1 1 2 3 5 7 11
2 0.5 1 1.5 2.5 3.5 5.5
3 0.33 0.67 1 1.67 2.33 3.67
4 0.25 0.5 0.75 1.25 1.75 2.75
5 0.2 0.4 0.6 1 1.4 2.2


1 2 3 5 8 13
1 1 2 3 5 8 13
2 0.5 1 1.5 2.5 4 6.5
3 0.33 0.67 1 1.67 2.67 4.33
4 0.25 0.5 0.75 1.25 2 3.25
5 0.2 0.4 0.6 1 1.6 2.6
If we drop the quanta produced then the iterations of the card required is so high that it is implausible for game use, Ie, you might as well use nova or quantum Pillars. If we increase the amount that it produces beyond 3 then the iterations becomes to low and the card too powerful. This turnover can be seen  at the 3/7 and 3/8 junctures. Thats about as Lay as I can get.

This card does not work the same as dark ritual does in magic. There is a great deal of differences in the resource usage primarily because of elements ability to stockpile.   



All is good except the art is less than admirable and not that original.
Yeah, art sucks. I made point of that. Got a better image?

Jaxly

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Re: Quantum Rush | Quantum Rush https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5174.msg55792#msg55792
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2010, 04:30:20 pm »
Thats an interesting view. Doesn't really match mine tho. Elements aren't gods.

From the evidence I've seen in the game Elementals (The Player Characters) are simply creatures of focused energy. To gather more power the Elemental has to build a tool or force a conversion to gain that energy. The simple version of this is constructing a Pillar. The internal mechanics of the pillar gather a particular energy from the Environment for the Elemental to use.

More complex variations are Nova and Cremate. They work by the elemental putting a conjuncture into effect and harvesting the results. The Quantum rush is an example of this, allowing the elemental while creating a pillar to put a conjuncture into effect and gain a particular type of elemental energy at the same time.
That's a great concept, I love getting different perspectives into things like this  :)   
I didn't mean to say that elements were gods, just that they obtained power in a similar fashion.
I can understand if you don't see things this way. Any suggestions on what to change or do you think the card should be denied altogether because of the theme issue?
Certainly not denied. Gameplay should come before story, and half the fun is twisting a story around the gameplay!
Your card is kinda difficult though. I can't see any way of defining the theme without limiting the imagination of the players. I think it forces elements to define itself in how it works.
"Quantum rush" fits perfectly with your definition as it would be the elemental itself constructing the pillar. A "rush" of energy for the elemental would allow quick construction and the environment would react to this energy, increasing yield.
The best I can think of is to name the card "fervor" but it would slightly conform the game world to my view of how it works.
Fervor/Fervour
1. great intensity of feeling or belief; ardour; zeal
2. Rare intense heat
Best of luck getting it into the game!

Kael Hate

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Re: Quantum Rush | Quantum Rush https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5174.msg56593#msg56593
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2010, 07:08:03 pm »
"Quantum rush" fits perfectly with your definition as it would be the elemental itself constructing the pillar. A "rush" of energy for the elemental would allow quick construction and the environment would react to this energy, increasing yield.
The best I can think of is to name the card "fervor" but it would slightly conform the game world to my view of how it works.
Fervor/Fervour
1. great intensity of feeling or belief; ardour; zeal
2. Rare intense heat
Best of luck getting it into the game!
Fervor to me is an emotional reaction and not suitable for this card. Sounds to me like something for a creature ability or spell that affects creatures. Thanks for the suggestion but I'd rather stick with my own name.



Updated for current template

Kael Hate

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Re: Quantum Rush | Quantum Rush https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5174.msg57476#msg57476
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2010, 09:48:06 am »
Well, if I had a way to actually test non-existent cards, I would show you a decklist, but the first thing that came to mind was flying Discords with Black Hole. Most of the time the deck relies solely on the mark to power its gravity spells, but this would enable the deck to cast them sooner and more often.
I've built various versions of this and was finding that the lockdown was pretty quick regardless. I kept getting looped out because the Discord only scatters at the end of turn and the opponent never had enough quanta for that to matter when using Nymphs and|or Black Hole. Any more details to aid me here?

Re: Quantum Rush | Quantum Rush https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5174.msg63019#msg63019
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2010, 11:15:08 pm »
Love the idea, but maybe gaining less instant quanta for the unupped card? And there probably shouldn't be a separate card for each element, since if you wanted to switch marks the cards would become useless. I would like to see this eventually though.

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Re: Quantum Rush | Quantum Rush https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5174.msg64946#msg64946
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2010, 04:17:27 pm »
Does the upgraded version put a normal or an upgraded pillar into play? I assume normal because you used the word pillar instead of tower?

What would be the advantages/disadvantages of reducing the quantum generated but producing a tower instead?
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Kael Hate

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Re: Quantum Rush | Quantum Rush https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5174.msg64952#msg64952
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2010, 04:26:48 pm »
Does the upgraded version put a normal or an upgraded pillar into play? I assume normal because you used the word pillar instead of tower?

What would be the advantages/disadvantages of reducing the quantum generated but producing a tower instead?
The Result is just a Pillar. This is to make the mechanic identical across all cards without having to calculate wether a Tower is required and also does not grant extra quanta when it enters play.

3 is the key production value of the element you need (See maths above). This cannot be adjusted easily.
The other values can be tweaked. If it was to make a tower it would be a more complex mechanic to code and the card would need its cost increased by one to offset the quanta given for free by the tower. This could be used to push up the deployment cost if it was being used to early but I would try to stay away from that adjustment to help coding.

Kael Hate

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Re: Quantum Rush | Quantum Rush https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5174.msg72544#msg72544
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2010, 07:34:21 pm »
Nova/Quantum Rush, QT/Quantum Rush make the cost negligible. This is basically a Dark Ritual (https://www.coolstuffinc.com/images/Products/mtg%20art/Tempest/Dark%20Ritual.jpg) with the added benefit of gaining a pillar of your mark, which is a HUGE benefit. I would abuse the heck out of this card.
I did some testing with Nova and this card and because you are losing a card to run the Nova you aren't running ahead with it that fast. The small cost it has is to stop you playing with just these and to offset the gain against the needed 3 production. If it came to tweaking in the future. I would make it make it cost 3 for the 3 conversion and have it produce a Pillar or tower respectively, but that might make it much to slow on the curve.

 

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