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Elements the Game => Level 1 - Crucible => Card Ideas and Art => Crucible Archive => Topic started by: Pineapple on January 08, 2011, 02:16:44 pm

Title: Lithification | Crystallization
Post by: Pineapple on January 08, 2011, 02:16:44 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/ugf3R.png)	(http://i.imgur.com/otL9e.png)
NAME: Lithification ELEMENT: Earth COST: 3 :earth TYPE: Spell ATK|HP: TEXT: Turn the target into a number of pillars of the same element.	NAME: Crystallization ELEMENT: Earth COST: 2 :earth TYPE: Spell ATK|HP: TEXT: Turn the target into a number of towers of the same element.

ART: patchx94 IDEA: patchx94 NOTES: Version 2: amount of pillars/towers generated scales with cost of target. Version 1: 2 pillars/towers were generated. "a number" is (C/3)+1, where C is the cost of the target and C/3 is rounded down. Will not trigger death effects. Can be used on both creatures and permanents, including your own pillars. Pillar/tower is spawned on the same side as the target was from. Extra 1/3 from the tower is gained. "Other" things become Quantum Pillars/Towers. OP form of insta-kill CC? SERIES:

Title: Re: Lithification | Crystallization
Post by: OldTrees on January 08, 2011, 02:34:52 pm

I think this would work best as Casting Cost/N pillars. A Crimson Dragon is worth about 3-4 pillars I think.

So maybe creates 1+Casting Cost/3? that way it pays of the investment part way through the 4th turn.

I like this idea.

Title: Re: Lithification | Crystallization
Post by: Pineapple on January 08, 2011, 02:51:43 pm

Yeah, scaling with cost would be great.

The best way to do this would to somehow find "the cost", such as finding the average costs of all the cards in the game, or of all the creatures in the game, or all the weapons and shields counting for one each and all the creatures and other permanents counting for six each and then averaging the sum of all of those costs, or...

I'll trust your reasoning and math behind this and change it to one third of the cost rounded up (we don't want to make complex formulas on the card text now, do we?  ;D) Too hard to word, so I'll just put the formula in notes and leave the card text vague.

On another note, how would this work with Phoenix? Would it be like mutation and aflatoxin, or would it be like killing the phoenix and producing the quanta? I think "becomes" makes it the former, while the latter would be cool with lava destroyer and minor phoenix cremation. Therefore, I'm thinking of changing it to Fossilize and rewording it to "Kill the target and create..." though you can't kill a permanent. Discuss?

Title: Re: Lithification | Crystallization
Post by: Pineapple on January 08, 2011, 02:56:01 pm

Version 2 Marker.

Title: Re: Lithification | Crystallization
Post by: OldTrees on January 08, 2011, 02:56:58 pm

I think either reaction with Phoenix is within the realm of balance. I would go with it not killing the Phoenix and thus no ash or malignant cell will be formed.

Title: Re: Lithification | Crystallization
Post by: doublecross on January 08, 2011, 03:15:00 pm

I agree, this card is OP if it triggers death effects.

Thus, this card shouldn't count as killing the target. No bonewall increase, no skeletons summoned, no ash, no malignant cells, scavengers don't benefit.

Title: Re: Lithification | Crystallization
Post by: Pineapple on January 08, 2011, 05:29:42 pm

So..anything more on balance? Is it crucible-ready?

Title: Re: Lithification | Crystallization
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on January 08, 2011, 05:34:23 pm

For the problem of triggering death effects, you could have the creature morph into a pillar instead.

I think this card is balanced.  It allows you to get back on track if you're running low on pillars, and at the same time could be CC.

Looks crucible-ready.

Title: Re: Lithification | Crystallization
Post by: Legit on January 09, 2011, 02:22:05 am

This card is a very nice idea, due to the fact it could be used in many strategies (including new ones based on this card) and it is unique in the way it interacts with the cards already in play.

First off, I’ll give my opinions on the subjects being discussed already. I think it should not trigger death affects. The target creature is being changed into something else – It is not dying in any form. The CC aspect is harder to balance. It would be fine if the target was something like a Crimson Dragon: The opponent would receive 3 pillars and lose a card which could have been killed by a Lightning. However, what if you targeted a Chimera? What if you used it as a form of PC and destroyed a Phase Shield? Depending on the situation, this card could be very overpowered. A possible idea is to change it so you can only target cards on your side of the field.

Anyways, on to the strengths of the card. This card is very versatile, which makes it invaluable in many decks. You can use it on your creature that is about to die, you can remove your Wings that is going to expire and get free pillars, or you can use it to create pillars for pump spells like Fire Bolt. It could also strengthen certain types of decks, for example, a mono-Earth deck could be:
6 x Stone Pillar
6 x Earth Pendulum
4 x Stone Skin
4 x Lithification
6 x Stone Dragon
6 x Shrieker
With mark of Earth. This deck would be extremely versatile and counter many strategies. Your opponent is rushing with a 30 card deck? Play your creatures, use Lithification, and then Stone Skin. Your opponent is stalling? Play your creatures, the dragons have high hp and the Shriekers can burrow. You get the idea.

Overall, I think this card is a great idea.

Title: Re: Lithification | Crystallization
Post by: Ajit on January 09, 2011, 02:35:03 am

I like this mechanic very much.  Seems like a very unique and creative one :)

I'm not the balancing pro so I'll leave it to others who will and already have told you if it is overpowered or not.

But, I like it.

Title: Re: Lithification | Crystallization
Post by: Pineapple on January 09, 2011, 02:35:26 am

Ah, I forgot to include that I've decided that it will not trigger death effects.

Quote from: Legit on January 09, 2011, 02:22:05 am

However, what if you targeted a Chimera? What if you used it as a form of PC and destroyed a Phase Shield? Depending on the situation, this card could be very overpowered. A possible idea is to change it so you can only target cards on your side of the field.

Well, my goal in creating this card was to create a cheap form of PC. I chose pillar-converting because Earth also has Quicksand, which can be used to take care of the extra pillars produced.

Chimera is the only creature that would cause such a large disappointment in being Crystallized, but that same disappointment can be caused by other cards such as Rewind or Antimatter. As for Phase Shields, I would not think that destroying a Phase Shield for double the quanta of an Explosion and giving your opponent a free 2 towers (not to mention 2 extra :aether for those towers being played).

The main problem is obviously that you only need 2 :earth to completely destroy any monster in your path. If we take out the ability for this card to target creatures, however, then we also take out most of its versatility.

But Earth wasn't the most flexible element to begin with. Discuss?

Title: Re: Lithification | Crystallization
Post by: Legit on January 09, 2011, 03:04:47 am

Although having a card that is both CC and PC will be a bit tedious, your points are vaild and I agree that it is balanced.

Title: Re: Lithification | Crystallization
Post by: Kuroaitou on January 09, 2011, 01:42:56 pm

CURATOR COMMENT
-Please specify in your ART table who drew the art (I assume it's you, but I just want to check). ^^;

Title: Re: Lithification | Crystallization
Post by: Tarias on January 11, 2011, 06:50:53 pm

I like the concept, although I feel it should only be able to target your own permanents and creatures. PC and CC in one card, and this cheap just seems way to strong.

Title: Re: Lithification | Crystallization
Post by: Pineapple on January 11, 2011, 10:03:49 pm

Quote from: Tarias on January 11, 2011, 06:50:53 pm

I like the concept, although I feel it should only be able to target your own permanents and creatures. PC and CC in one card, and this cheap just seems way to strong.

I originally designed the card to be PC, and I'm adamant about giving other elements cheap PC. Consequently, I would never take that part of the card away.

Now, it is true that I did not take the versatility of this card into account when I made the cost, but I can't say that it's cheap for its individual uses.

For permanent control, for example, it costs 1 more quanta than Deflagration/Explosion. In addition, it gives the opponent some pillars. In the case of the upped version, it gives the opponent towers, which means that the opponent also gains 1-3 extra quanta of that element the very next turn. I really don't want to increase the cost to the cost of Steal; after all, it does just as much as Deflagration/Explosion and more: it helps the opponent, too.

Creature control is a bit harder to defend because it is an insta-kill card. However, only a deck with no more than 6 creatures susceptible to CC would be destroyed. However, a deck with, say, 12 creatures would be able to spit out more creatures faster because of the extra pillars. You may try to kill that crimson dragon in the pillarless destroyer rush, but all you end up doing is give the 4 extra :fire to play another destroyer. Would insta-killing creature really have been better than congealing it for 4 turns, or delaying it for 6 turns?

Title: Re: Lithification | Crystallization
Post by: QuantumT on January 20, 2011, 08:38:59 am

I feel that for balance the cost of the card needs to be upped by one to 4|3, and possibly change the rounding to up instead of down.

For the CC side, this would be the first single card instakill. Even though you give your opponent pillars in the process, that's only really helpful in the early game when quanta is tight. Late game, you almost always have more quanta than you know what to do with, so giving more pillars to your opponent is hardly even a penalty.

While you are correct in saying that for PC it's strictly worse than explosion, you have to pay for that versatility as well, and since it's being tacked on to what would already be some of the best CC in the game, I'm weary.

Title: Re: Lithification | Crystallization
Post by: YoYoBro on January 20, 2011, 01:38:34 pm

QuantumT's point is really good, and Zanz already said he doesn't want to implement instakill cards that disregard HPs.

Title: Re: Lithification | Crystallization
Post by: Pineapple on January 20, 2011, 02:11:56 pm

Okay, after it gets kicked from Crucible, I'll change it to do a set amount of damage to creatures.

In addition, the amount of damage will be discussed here. I'm thinking 6. Any objections?

Title: Re: Lithification | Crystallization
Post by: YoYoBro on January 20, 2011, 02:56:29 pm

6 should do fine.

Title: Re: Lithification | Crystallization
Post by: doublecross on January 20, 2011, 03:02:14 pm

How about this mechanic:
If played on a creature, it petrifies it for 6 turns, during which time it acts as a pillar of its element.
If played on a creature that is already petrified or delayed, then it does the insta-kill-turn-into-towers effect.

Title: Re: Lithification | Crystallization
Post by: Pineapple on January 20, 2011, 06:30:21 pm

Quote from: doublecross on January 20, 2011, 03:02:14 pm

How about this mechanic:
If played on a creature, it petrifies it for 6 turns, during which time it acts as a pillar of its element.
If played on a creature that is already petrified or delayed, then it does the insta-kill-turn-into-towers effect.

I like your idea, but not how hard it is to fit into the text/code.

What about "Delays target for 3 turns. If it is already delayed, turn it into a number of pillars/towers instead." With the same formula, rounding up. Remember, I made this card to give earth pc.

Right now, I'm leaning towards "Sacrifice a creature or destroy a permanent to produce a number of pillars/towers."

Title: Re: Lithification | Crystallization
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on January 20, 2011, 09:58:08 pm

I agree with Deal 6 damage. How about "Deal 6 damage to target creature, if the target is killed by this card it becomes X pillars?"

Quote from: patchx94 on January 20, 2011, 06:30:21 pm

What about "Delays target for 3 turns. If it is already delayed, turn it into a number of pillars/towers instead." With the same formula, rounding up. Remember, I made this card to give earth pc.

However this alternative is very good as well.  I'd say either one works.

Title: Re: Lithification | Crystallization
Post by: QuantumT on January 20, 2011, 10:01:44 pm

I like the delay option over the damage one, mostly because then it works the same way against permanents and creatures.

Title: Re: Lithification | Crystallization
Post by: Pineapple on January 21, 2011, 01:11:50 am

Okay, so I've made up my mind and narrowed it down to the first use delaying the creature/permanent. I might add an "insta-kill" feature against delayed creature (gravity-basilisk-voodoo counter?), but solely for cost-balancing purposes. You see, the cards whose costs you need to take into account are basilisk blood, freeze, and maybe permanent control in general.

Basilisk blood: 2 :earth 6-turn 1 :earth 6-turn
Freeze: 1 :water 3-turn 1 :water 4-turn

so would making it 3-2 and instakill be too expensive?
also, should it delay the permanent or the permanent slot when the permanent is targetted?

Title: Re: Lithification | Crystallization
Post by: YoYoBro on January 22, 2011, 02:18:53 pm

In my opinion, 3-2 shouldn't be too expensive, and it should delay the permanent slot if targeted (more versatility)