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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Enlivening | Enlivening https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14210.msg180495#msg180495
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2010, 03:49:29 pm »
Compare to offensive capabilities to Earthquake

At 0 Pillars both are useless
At 1 Pillar Earthquake is superior because Enlivening costs 1 more, and only creates a 1|1 (the creature is also a pillar)
At 2 Pillars Earthquake is still superior because Enlivening costs 1 more, and leaves a 2|2 plliar
At 3 Pillars Earthquake is still superior because Enlivening costs 1 more, and leaves a 3|3 plliar
At 4 Pillars Earthquake is still superior because Enlivening costs 1 more, and leaves a 4|4 (they both leave a pillar)

At 5 Pillars Earthquake has a 1 quanta advantage and doesn't create a 5|5 creature but Enlivening destroys 1 more pillar. Since a 5|5 Immortal is worth 7 quanta the question is 8 quanta or 1 pillar. (8.00 turns)
At 6 Pillars Earthquake has a 1 quanta advantage and doesn't create a 6|6 creature but Enlivening destroys 2 more pillars. Since a 6|6 Immortal is worth 9 quanta the question is 10 quanta or 2 pillars. (5.00 turns)
At 7 Pillars Earthquake has a 1 quanta advantage and doesn't create a 7|7 creature but Enlivening destroys 3 more pillars. Since a 7|7 Immortal is worth 10 quanta the question is 11 quanta or 3 pillars. (3.66 turns)
At 8 Pillars Earthquake has a 1 quanta advantage and doesn't create a 8|8 creature but Enlivening destroys 4 more pillars. Since a 8|8 Immortal is worth 12 quanta the question is 13 quanta or 4 pillars. (3.25 turns)
At 9 Pillars Earthquake has a 1 quanta advantage and doesn't create a 9|9 creature but Enlivening destroys 5 more pillars. Since a 9|9 Immortal is worth 13 quanta the question is 14 quanta or 5 pillars. (2.80 turns)
At 10 Pillars Earthquake has a 1 quanta advantage and doesn't create a 10|10 creature but Enlivening destroys 6 more pillars. Since a 10|10 Immortal is worth 15 quanta the question is 16 quanta or 6 pillars. (2.66 turns)

At X (X>10) Pillars Earthquake has a 1 quanta advantage and doesn't create a X|X creature but Enlivening destroys X-4 more pillars. Since a X|X Immortal is worth X+5 quanta the question is X+6 quanta or X-4 pillars. ([X+6]/[X-4] turns)

[X+6]/[X-4]=2 at 14 Pillars. So at 14 pillars Enlivening is superior to Earthquake if there are at least 2 (of your opponent's) turns remaining in the duel.

I believe that based on the above we can agree that offensively Enlivening is not superior to Earthquake until around 7-10 pillars. Since Earthquake is strictly better at 1-4 pillars and probably still better at 5-6 pillars, I think it is fair to say that Enlivening is balanced even when used offensively.


Defensive use

Unupped only considered. Upped would have quanta cost and benefit both reduced by 1
PillarsCost (including quanta not produced)BenefitTurns valued
15 quanta and 1 pillar3 quanta and 1 pillar0
26 quanta and 2 pillars4 quanta and 1 pillar0
37 quanta and 3 pillars5 quanta and 1 pillar0
48 quanta and 4 pillars6 quanta and 1 pillar0
59 quanta and 5 pillars7 quanta and 1 pillar0
610 quanta and 6 pillars9 quanta and 1 pillar0
711 quanta and 7 pillars10 quanta and 1 pillar0
812 quanta and 8 pillars12 quanta and 1 pillar0
913 quanta and 9 pillars13 quanta and 1 pillar0
1014 quanta and 10 pillars15 quanta and 1 pillar1
X (X>10)X+4 quanta and X pillarsX+5 quanta and 1 pillar1
Unfortunately while hostile offensive use is balanced, defensive passive use is strictly foolish until 10 pillars and even then it is only valuable if that is the last turn. Please buff the Defensive passive use of this spell.

However there is one final use to consider. The last turn bomb. This would require you holding onto 1 Enlivening (extra would be useless) and using Enlivening with no intention of the opponent even getting a turn. This would be a very  :fire like use of the card. In this case it does X damage for 4 quanta where X is the number of pillars. 2 Lightning bolts deal 10 damage and cost 4 quanta. Since Enlivening would only use 1 card (instead of 2 lightning bolts), Enlivening would be worth while as a bomb at 10 pillars or more.

All in all I would recommend either buffing the defensive use so it is worth while and thus give the card a  :life like use or to change it to  :fire as a synergistic control/bomb in conjunction with Fire Bolt.

Sources: Quanta value of creatures (Mechanics of Creature Cost by PhantomFox http://elementswiki.co.cc/articles/mechanics-of-creature-cost/)

Edited: Forgot to include the +2 quanta value for Immortality
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Offline ddevans96Topic starter

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Re: Enlivening | Enlivening https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14210.msg180629#msg180629
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2010, 08:31:00 pm »
How much stats would the pillar increase per extra pillar? Would it be 1|1 per pillar?
If any pillars are played afterwards, they are played as normal pillars and stack normally.

---long post----
So how do you think I should make the defensive part of the card more powerful while keeping the offensive part balanced?
And would lowering the cost help balance it in any way?
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Enlivening | Enlivening https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14210.msg180772#msg180772
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2010, 12:09:13 am »
As is now
PillarsOffensive Benefit-CostDefensive Benefit-Cost
10 pillars - 7 quanta-2 quanta - 0 pillars
21 pillars - 8 quanta-2 quanta - 1 pillars
32 pillars - 9 quanta-2 quanta - 2 pillars
43 pillars - 10 quanta-2 quanta - 3 pillars
54 pillars - 11 quanta-2 quanta - 4 pillars
65 pillars - 13 quanta-1 quanta - 5 pillars
76 pillars - 14 quanta-1 quanta - 6 pillars
87 pillars - 16 quanta0 quanta - 7 pillars
98 pillars - 17 quanta0 quanta - 8 pillars
109 pillars - 19 quanta1 quanta - 9 pillars
Try +3/+3 per pillar. (5 pillars for a 15/15)
I know it looks large but it costs 4 pillars which means in the long run it is disadvantageous.

Offensive/Stall quanta cost = Creature Value + 4 (Casting Cost)
Offensive Creature value = Attack + 2 (Immortal) + 1 (if HP>5) + 1 (if HP>7) +1 (if HP>9)
Defensive/Rush quanta benefit = Creature Value - 4 (Casting Cost) - Lost quanta production
Defensive Creature value = Offensive Creature value - 1 ( :life bonus)

PillarsOffensive/Stall Benefit-CostDefensive/Rush Benefit-Cost
10 pillars - 8 quanta 0 quanta - 0 pillars
21 pillar - 10 quanta 1 quanta - 1 pillar
32 pillars - 14 quanta 4 quanta - 2 pillars
43 pillars - 18 quanta 7 quanta - 3 pillars
54 pillars - 21 quanta 9 quanta - 4 pillars
65 pillars - 24 quanta 11 quanta - 5 pillars
76 pillars - 27 quanta 13 quanta - 6 pillars
87 pillars - 30 quanta 15 quanta - 7 pillars
98 pillars - 33 quanta 17 quanta - 8 pillars
109 pillars - 36 quanta 19 quanta - 9 pillars
Quanta/Pillars is the number of turns to move from short term to long term.

Number of turns until short term changes to long term.
Offensive/Stall use has to outlast the short term. 4-5 is a good target number.
Defensive/Rush use has to win in the short term. 2-3 is a good target number.

PillarsOffensiveDefensiveOffensiveDefensive
18/00/0infiniten/a
210/11/1101.00
314/24/272.00
418/37/362.33
521/49/45.252.25
624/511/54.802.20
727/613/64.502.16
830/715/74.292.14
933/817/84.132.13
1036/919/94.002.11
1139/1021/103.902.10
1242/1123/113.812.09
1345/1225/123.752.08
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Offline ddevans96Topic starter

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Re: Enlivening | Enlivening https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14210.msg180774#msg180774
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2010, 12:12:22 am »
I'm not sure I understand the math you're using, but if you think it would balance it, I will do that.
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Re: Enlivening | Enlivening https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14210.msg180858#msg180858
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2010, 02:54:57 am »
I made a mistake in the math up above. It is now fixed.
+3/+3 per pillar would be balanced stats.
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Re: Enlivening | Enlivening https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14210.msg181040#msg181040
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2010, 02:25:56 pm »
Okay.......wouldn't it be too powerful, +3|+3 per pillar?
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Re: Enlivening | Enlivening https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14210.msg181993#msg181993
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2010, 06:59:53 pm »
Okay.......wouldn't it be too powerful, +3|+3 per pillar?
Sorry I was gone. I got locked out for a while because I forgot my password.

I have some math up above that indicates to me that +3|+3 is not too powerful. You are giving up all but 1 pillar after all. If you can follow the math you will see my logic, however I would agree that it would be even better if it were between +2|+2 and +3|+3. However the +3|+3 is closer I think.

My math is based on the idea that this gives a short term advantage and a longterm disadvantage.
I tried to balance it so when used on your pillars it gives a higher than normal return for 2 turns followed by 1 turn of average returns and then progressively worse returns every turn thereafter.

+2|+2 each gives 1 turn of higher return, 1 of normal and then goes into sharp decline.
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Re: Enlivening | Enlivening https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14210.msg182355#msg182355
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2010, 01:16:14 am »
Well, as long as there are not too many pillars.
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Re: Enlivening | Enlivening https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14210.msg182433#msg182433
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2010, 02:58:18 am »
Well, as long as there are not too many pillars.
Offensive/Stall quanta cost = Creature Value + 4 (Casting Cost)
Offensive Creature value = Attack + 2 (Immortal) + 1 (if HP>5) + 1 (if HP>7) +1 (if HP>9)
Defensive/Rush quanta benefit = Creature Value - 4 (Casting Cost) - Lost quanta production
Defensive Creature value = Offensive Creature value - 1 ( :life bonus)

PillarsOffensive/Stall Benefit-CostDefensive/Rush Benefit-Cost
10 pillars -8 quanta 0 quanta -0 pillars
21 pillar -10 quanta 1 quanta -1 pillar
32 pillars -14 quanta 4 quanta -2 pillars
43 pillars -18 quanta 7 quanta -3 pillars
54 pillars -21 quanta 9 quanta -4 pillars
65 pillars -24 quanta 11 quanta -5 pillars
76 pillars -27 quanta 13 quanta -6 pillars
87 pillars -30 quanta 15 quanta -7 pillars
98 pillars -33 quanta 17 quanta -8 pillars
109 pillars -36 quanta 19 quanta -9 pillars
+1+1 pillars -3 quanta +2 quanta -1 pillars
This means when used for the rush version (used on your pillars) with X pillars (X>4):
The spell cost 4 quanta
X pillars are destroyed
X quanta will not be produced at the end of the turn
A 3X|3X immortal creature is created (3X+2+3-1 quanta worth)
The creature generates 1 quanta per turn
The creature produces 1 quanta this turn

Total: (1-X) quanta per turn, 2X+1 net quanta value
Net quanta
First Turn: 2X+1
Second Turn: X+2
Third Turn: 3
Fourth Turn: 4-X
Fifth Turn: 5-2X
Sixth Turn: 6-3X

Total Value after 5 turns: 15
Total Value after 6 turns: 21-3X

If it were +2|+2 per pillar (X>4)

The spell cost 4 quanta
X pillars are destroyed
X quanta will not be produced at the end of the turn
A 2X|2X immortal creature is created (2X+2+3-1 quanta worth)
The creature generates 1 quanta per turn
The creature produces 1 quanta this turn

Total: (1-X) quanta per turn, X+1 net quanta value
Net quanta
First Turn: X+1
Second Turn: 2
Third Turn: 3-X
Fourth Turn: 4-2X
Fifth Turn: 5-3X
Sixth Turn: 6-4X

Total Value after 5 turns: 15-5X
Total Value after 6 turns: 21-9X

After a 2nd review, +2|+2 is more balanced when considering Rush TTW.
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Re: Enlivening | Enlivening https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14210.msg312667#msg312667
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2011, 03:27:21 am »
Reworked another one of my old cards and added art.
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