Ice Behemoth | Ice Behemoth

[willng3]

I believe plague, RoF, and thunderstorm work by targeting every creature individually and automatically.
I could be wrong though.

Actually, I do believe this is right.  If this weren't the case then the above cards would be able to affect quinted creatures.  This might need changing then.

[Bloodshadow]

I believe plague, RoF, and thunderstorm work by targeting every creature individually and automatically.
I could be wrong though.

I think AoE spells target all creatures, which is why they don't affect Immortal or Burrowed creatures.

[ninjaclone09]

Guys stop talking bout everything that cant kill it in one hit! If it says to target, and you click the ice behemoth ITS DEAD! NO MATTER WHAT! EVEN IF IT HEALS OR SOMETHING!!
Also,things that AUTOMATICALLY target don't count as certain death. So plague, pandemonium, rain of fire, thunderstorm, and all that crap that automatically targets it doesn't mean certain death(unless hes got like 1hp =P).

Anyways aren't you guys going to debate on how you could balance it out? Or point out that it's very good and already balanced? Or not comment at all? You decide!

[willng3]

Guys stop talking bout everything that cant kill it in one hit! If it says to target, and you click the ice behemoth ITS DEAD! NO MATTER WHAT! EVEN IF IT HEALS OR SOMETHING!!
Also,things that AUTOMATICALLY target don't count as certain death. So plague, pandemonium, rain of fire, thunderstorm, and all that crap that automatically targets it doesn't mean certain death(unless hes got like 1hp =P).

Anyways aren't you guys going to debate on how you could balance it out? Or point out that it's very good and already balanced? Or not comment at all? You decide!

We're in the midst of discussing the mechanics of the card itself; only once there have been no faults within the workings of the card itself can we then decide whether it is balanced or not.  Now, as has been pointed out over the past few comments to this thread, there is obviously some type of issue with the statement that AoE effects will not kill this card.  If it was not clear through your intense reading of the past few posts, then allow me to explain.

Quintessence states that "The target creature cannot be targeted."  This then proceeds to point out that Rain of Fire, Plague, Pandemonium, and Thunderstorm, despite none of them specifically stating that any creature is targeted , do not affect the creature affected by Quintessence.  Why is this important?  Simple.  If the cards were not target-based spells, then they would clearly still inflict damage to the creature on which Quintessence was placed.  However, it now becomes clear that these can be considered targeting spells, which then makes that comment in the notes concerning RoF and Plague incorrect.

So then, now that this has been brought to light, will the effect remain as stated, or will it be changed?

[Nepycros]

It's wording is the opposite of Quintessence, so I'm going to assume it has the opposite effect. If it's targeted, meaning that it takes upon the effect written on the card with which the ability is used, then I will assume that it will enact what's written on the card, and destroy the Ice Behemoth.

[ninjaclone09]

Guys stop talking bout everything that cant kill it in one hit! If it says to target, and you click the ice behemoth ITS DEAD! NO MATTER WHAT! EVEN IF IT HEALS OR SOMETHING!!
Also,things that AUTOMATICALLY target don't count as certain death. So plague, pandemonium, rain of fire, thunderstorm, and all that crap that automatically targets it doesn't mean certain death(unless hes got like 1hp =P).

Anyways aren't you guys going to debate on how you could balance it out? Or point out that it's very good and already balanced? Or not comment at all? You decide!

We're in the midst of discussing the mechanics of the card itself; only once there have been no faults within the workings of the card itself can we then decide whether it is balanced or not.  Now, as has been pointed out over the past few comments to this thread, there is obviously some type of issue with the statement that AoE effects will not kill this card.  If it was not clear through your intense reading of the past few posts, then allow me to explain.

Quintessence states that "The target creature cannot be targeted."  This then proceeds to point out that Rain of Fire, Plague, Pandemonium, and Thunderstorm, despite none of them specifically stating that any creature is targeted , do not affect the creature affected by Quintessence.  Why is this important?  Simple.  If the cards were not target-based spells, then they would clearly still inflict damage to the creature on which Quintessence was placed.  However, it now becomes clear that these can be considered targeting spells, which then makes that comment in the notes concerning RoF and Plague incorrect.

So then, now that this has been brought to light, will the effect remain as stated, or will it be changed?

Oh i see, your taking a reference from quintessence and how it isn't affected by Rain of Fire and plague and all that crap even though it's not targeted, it's automatically targeted. So you think that Rain of fire, plague, pandemonium, and thunderstorm should trigger Ice Behemoth's ability? Hm, good point indeed. I could agree to that.

[QuantumT]

An interesting choice. This means, a minor creature, such as a bloodsucker, would easily destroy a creature like that. In that case, I'd like to see if this stands up to the algorithm. Phantom Fox says that quanta cost is determined mostly by attack, which would be 9, and since it's health is over 5, it also adds 1. So, does it's ability really reduce the cost by 5? I'd say 3 tops, so, reduce the health by 2, and that brings it down to a total cost of 6. I'm not sure what the final reduction would be, but if push comes to shove, you might want to set up the unupped as 6.

So I don't think that it's health really is going to boost the needed cost. The reason that value was chosen was specifically so that it would survive double rain of fire. The general rule for 5 health is based generally on it's difficulty to remove, and because of the cards specific ability, for the purpose of any kill spell, it's health might as well be one. Basically, it brings a whole new meaning to the term glass cannon.

I believe plague, RoF, and thunderstorm work by targeting every creature individually and automatically.
I could be wrong though.

This is also my understanding of how they work, but my intent for its ability is summed up rather nicely by this:

How about if you lobotomize it? What do you mean by targeted? Do you mean that even if it is non-damage related (e.g. blessing), it would die too?

Targeted meaning that if a card effect produces a giant red target above the card before selected, then it will be destroyed.  So yes, non-damaging = death too.

Essentially, anytime there is a red target on behemoth and you click it, it dies. This differentiates targeted spells from mass effect spells, but I think the effect could be put at the level that the human targeting takes place, as opposed to the level where the final card effect takes place. I obviously can't say this for sure, since I don't know how the game is coded, but it seems reasonable.

[willng3]

A simple solution to that might be to change the wording slightly to include the word "specifically".  That narrows out death by means of AoE as no creature is specifically targeted by that effect.

[EmeraldTiger]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behemoth

[QuantumT]

So I guess the current consensus is that instant death shouldn't be triggered by mass spells.

How do people feel about the stats? I think they're pretty close to balanced personally.

[Drobbit]

Uf... did you think about the damage done by a couple of them, lets say, if I fractal? Or it could'n be fractaled due to his passive ability?

If I have enough quanta, 5 of them will do 60 damage points in a single turn. That's crazy.
I'm totally opposed to creatures that naturally do this amount of damage. I think that dragons had to be the top amount of damage. Otherwise, the game ends too fast.

[QuantumT]

Uf... did you think about the damage done by a couple of them, lets say, if I fractal? Or it could'n be fractaled due to his passive ability?

If I have enough quanta, 5 of them will do 60 damage points in a single turn. That's crazy.
I'm totally opposed to creatures that naturally do this amount of damage. I think that dragons had to be the top amount of damage. Otherwise, the game ends too fast.

Notes:If targeted with fractal, it will die without giving copies.

You want 5 of them, you're going to have to draw them.