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so you bless a holy rune adding +3|+3 and 5 other holy runes get +3|+3 as well? is that balanced?
[removed] yeah if killing 1 doesn't kill them all (like lightning) not sure if you can justify them all getting buffed together...If you can get all 6 of them out. :P
Parallel Universe would cause much more serious problem than Fractal or other things.TRUE
what about 1 HR + fractal + blessing?Unupped HR's are pretty expensive to Fractal. Upped HR's are a bit cost-ineffecient, but could work. Then you need space in your hand to Fractal and space to hold Blessings, which means less HR, from the Fractal. IMO v
Parallel Universe would cause much more serious problem than Fractal or other things.is more of a problem. There's always at least one card I forget to consider when making a card... And well, I have no justification against this. :P
1|1 / 2|2 stats for 3 :light might be a good start.http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,33346.0.htmlThe Core of the idea is the effect:
Could you please give feedback on ^? Main things to consider PU, and that all of the powerful combos you can do with it have a lot of separate cards involved.
"Any spell or skill that affects this card will also affect other Holy Runes."
The "up to 5" and "you control" clauses are unnecessary and do not have obvious thematic justifications.
This ability is primarily balanced by equal effect for positive and negative effects. However the current notes exclude certain negative effects resulting in less inherent balance. I would recommend removing this bias. Without that bias the positive and negative effects tend to cancel out.
CC would turn into Mass CC. Lightning would deal 5 damage to each
Mass CC would turn into incredibly large Mass CC. Thunderstorm would deal X damage to each
Buffs would turn into Mass Buffs. Blessing would add +3X attack total
Something important to remember is Buffs would get 1 attack before CC could be used. As such the stats should start subpar.
Fractal and Mitosis have enhancing effects on the original combo. Fractal increases the number of Holy Runes by ~6 each use. Mitosis increases the number of Holy Runes by the number at the time of casting per turn. Parallel Universe does not affect any Holy Rune therefore it does not trigger the ability.
Summary of Enhancers:
Fractal + Blessing + 2 Holy Runes: ~ 8 Blessed Holy Runes for 10 :aether|9 :aether + 3 :light|2 :light +2 cards + cost of 8 Holy Runes
Mitosis + Blessing + 2 Holy Runes: ~ 6 Blessed Holy Runes for 5 :life|4 :life + 3 :light|2 :light +2 cards + cost of 6 Holy Runes
Summary:
Remove the clauses and the buff bias, forget about Parallel Universe because it never had an effect and nerf the stats drastically.
Summary:Why isn't Parallel Universe considered as an effect? It can be granted as a random effect on a creature when we use Chaos Seed or Pandemonium.
Remove the clauses and the buff bias, forget about Parallel Universe because it never had an effect and nerf the stats drastically.
Or, to balance for PU, just decrease how many they can affect from 5 to 2.Not a really elegant solution. PU would effectively create a doubling effect for every PU used, which is pretty absurd. Blessing alone can make a very strong strategy: Blessed Pegasus is already very powerful and is a duo ability, this is completely mono and stronger. I don't think this is a balanced concept: just think of all the problems we had with SoR+DejaVu (which is pretty similar if you think about it).
Except that the cost in card number is different...Or, to balance for PU, just decrease how many they can affect from 5 to 2.Not a really elegant solution. PU would effectively create a doubling effect for every PU used, which is pretty absurd. Blessing alone can make a very strong strategy: Blessed Pegasus is already very powerful and is a duo ability, this is completely mono and stronger. I don't think this is a balanced concept: just think of all the problems we had with SoR+DejaVu (which is pretty similar if you think about it).
Except that the cost in card number is different...Taking into consideration only bonus damage rather than base damage:
Pegasus: 2 blessing and 1 pegasus to double the effects of 2 blessing
Rune: 1 blessing and 4 rune to quadruple the effects of 1 blessing
| 1 CREATURE | 2 CREATURES | 3 CREATURES | 4 CREATURES | 5 CREATURES | 6 CREATURES | |
| 1 BLESSING | 6 vs 3 | 6 vs 6 | 6 vs 9 | 6 vs 12 | 6 vs 15 | 6 vs 18 |
| 2 BLESSING | 12 vs 6 | 12 vs 12 | 12 vs 18 | 12 vs 24 | 12 vs 30 | 12 vs 36 |
| 3 BLESSING | 18 vs 9 | 18 vs 18 | 18 vs 27 | 18 vs 36 | 18 vs 45 | 18 vs 54 |
| 4 BLESSING | 24 vs 12 | 24 vs 24 | 24 vs 36 | 24 vs 48 | 24 vs 60 | 24 vs 72 |
| 5 BLESSING | 30 vs 15 | 30 vs 30 | 30 vs 45 | 30 vs 60 | 30 vs 75 | 30 vs 90 |
| 6 BLESSING | 36 vs 18 | 36 vs 36 | 36 vs 54 | 36 vs 72 | 36 vs 90 | 36 vs 108 |
...and that the cost in quanta is differentThis is true. However, depending on Rune's cost and stats you could have a very stable and durable 4-5 turn win deck. Nothing strange? Not until you factor in easy miracles. Think of an immorush speed deck that can Miracle multiple times in a game...
Buffs+Deja Vu+SoR: Around one turn of 2 towers/pends and 1 snova of quanta.
Buffs+Rune: Around two turns of 3-4 Light towers.
Taking into consideration only bonus damage rather than base damage:But my argument was based on maximum amount of damage for a certain number of cardsSo you have an initial advantage with pegasus (faster effect) that, depending on the number of creatures drawn, decreases rapidly.
1 CREATURE 2 CREATURES 3 CREATURES 4 CREATURES 5 CREATURES 6 CREATURES 1 BLESSING 6 vs 3 6 vs 6 6 vs 9 6 vs 12 6 vs 15 6 vs 18 2 BLESSING 12 vs 6 12 vs 12 12 vs 18 12 vs 24 12 vs 30 12 vs 36 3 BLESSING 18 vs 9 18 vs 18 18 vs 27 18 vs 36 18 vs 45 18 vs 54 4 BLESSING 24 vs 12 24 vs 24 24 vs 36 24 vs 48 24 vs 60 24 vs 72 5 BLESSING 30 vs 15 30 vs 30 30 vs 45 30 vs 60 30 vs 75 30 vs 90 6 BLESSING 36 vs 18 36 vs 36 36 vs 54 36 vs 72 36 vs 90 36 vs 108
Add that creatures without blessings is better than blessings without creatures, and that Holy Runes are faster (turn 1 double/triple/multiple damage increase instead of turn 2). Also, no Air quanta needed to Dive.
| Number of cards | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 |
| Pegasus (extra) damage | 6 | 12 | 18 | 24 | 30 | 36 | 36 | 36 | 36 | 36 | 36 |
| Rune (extra) damage | 3 | 6 | 12 | 18 | 27 | 36 | 48 | 60 | 75 | 90 | 108 |
Parallel Universe does not affect the targeted creature. It merely creates 1 additional copy. Chaos Seed and Pandemonium use the word effect because the majority of the results do affect the target. Parallel Universe can affect Chimera but cannot affect Holy Rune.Summary:Why isn't Parallel Universe considered as an effect? It can be granted as a random effect on a creature when we use Chaos Seed or Pandemonium.
Remove the clauses and the buff bias, forget about Parallel Universe because it never had an effect and nerf the stats drastically.
Am I misunderstanding something?
| Card A | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | |
| Card B | 0.5 | 0.25 | 0.125 | 0.0625 | 0.03125 | 0.015625 | |
| 1 | 0.5 | 0.5 | 0.375 | 0.25 | 0.15625 | 0.09375 | 0.055555556 |
| 2 | 0.25 | 0.375 | 0.375 | 0.3125 | 0.234375 | 0.166666667 | 0.117647059 |
| 3 | 0.125 | 0.25 | 0.3125 | 0.3125 | 0.277777778 | 0.235294118 | 0.199052133 |
| 4 | 0.0625 | 0.15625 | 0.234375 | 0.277777778 | 0.294117647 | 0.298578199 | 0.308823529 |
| 5 | 0.03125 | 0.09375 | 0.166666667 | 0.235294118 | 0.298578199 | 0.370588235 | 0.5 |
| 6 | 0.015625 | 0.055555556 | 0.117647059 | 0.199052133 | 0.308823529 | 0.5 | 1 |
| Combo Cards Drawn | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 |
| Extra damage Pegasus | 0,6,0 | 0,6,12,0 | 0,6,12,18,0 | 0,6,12,18,24,0 | 0,6,12,18,24,30,0 | 6,12,18,24,30,36 |
| Extra damage Holy Rune | 0,3,0 | 0,6,6,0 | 0,9,12,9,0 | 0,12,18,18,12,0 | 0,15,24,27,24,15,0 | 18,30,36,36,30,18 |
| Average Pegasus | 3 | 6.75 | 10.5 | 14.0625 | 17.4375 | 21 |
| Average Rune | 1.5 | 4.5 | 9 | 15 | 22.5 | 32 |
Now I see. The noun 'effect' is used in the game, especially in the form of 'a random effect', which contains Parallel Universe in its contents. I did not want that word to be used inconsistently as it excludes PU for this card.Parallel Universe does not affect the targeted creature. It merely creates 1 additional copy. Chaos Seed and Pandemonium use the word effect because the majority of the results do affect the target. Parallel Universe can affect Chimera but cannot affect Holy Rune.Summary:Why isn't Parallel Universe considered as an effect? It can be granted as a random effect on a creature when we use Chaos Seed or Pandemonium.
Remove the clauses and the buff bias, forget about Parallel Universe because it never had an effect and nerf the stats drastically.
Am I misunderstanding something?
Essentially affect is a verb that implies change. PU does not change and therefore is naturally excluded by using the word affect.
Ahh. I agree on everything except for two things.1|1 / 2|2 stats for 3 :light might be a good start.http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,33346.0.htmlThe Core of the idea is the effect:
Could you please give feedback on ^? Main things to consider PU, and that all of the powerful combos you can do with it have a lot of separate cards involved.
"Any spell or skill that affects this card will also affect other Holy Runes."
The "up to 5" and "you control" clauses are unnecessary and do not have obvious thematic justifications.
This ability is primarily balanced by equal effect for positive and negative effects. However the current notes exclude certain negative effects resulting in less inherent balance. I would recommend removing this bias. Without that bias the positive and negative effects tend to cancel out.
CC would turn into Mass CC. Lightning would deal 5 damage to each
Mass CC would turn into incredibly large Mass CC. Thunderstorm would deal X damage to each
Buffs would turn into Mass Buffs. Blessing would add +3X attack total
Something important to remember is Buffs would get 1 attack before CC could be used. As such the stats should start subpar.
Fractal and Mitosis have enhancing effects on the original combo. Fractal increases the number of Holy Runes by ~6 each use. Mitosis increases the number of Holy Runes by the number at the time of casting per turn. Parallel Universe does not affect any Holy Rune therefore it does not trigger the ability.
Summary of Enhancers:
Fractal + Blessing + 2 Holy Runes: ~ 8 Blessed Holy Runes for 10 :aether|9 :aether + 3 :light|2 :light +2 cards + cost of 8 Holy Runes
Mitosis + Blessing + 2 Holy Runes: ~ 6 Blessed Holy Runes for 5 :life|4 :life + 3 :light|2 :light +2 cards + cost of 6 Holy Runes
Summary:
Remove the clauses and the buff bias, forget about Parallel Universe because it never had an effect and nerf the stats drastically.
1|6 / 2|6 stats for 4 :light is riskier but also a potential starting place.
Blessing alone can make a very strong strategy: Blessed Pegasus is already very powerful and is a duo ability, this is completely mono and stronger. I don't think this is a balanced concept: just think of all the problems we had with SoR+DejaVu (which is pretty similar if you think about it).
Except that the cost in card number is different...
Pegasus: 2 blessing and 1 pegasus to double the effects of 2 blessing
Rune: 1 blessing and 4 rune to quadruple the effects of 1 blessing
...and that the cost in quanta is different
Buffs+Deja Vu+SoR: Around one turn of 2 towers/pends and 1 snova of quanta.
Buffs+Rune: Around two turns of 3-4 Light towers.
Taking into consideration only bonus damage rather than base damage:So you have an initial advantage with pegasus (faster effect) that, depending on the number of creatures drawn, decreases rapidly.
1 CREATURE 2 CREATURES 3 CREATURES 4 CREATURES 5 CREATURES 6 CREATURES 1 BLESSING 6 vs 3 6 vs 6 6 vs 9 6 vs 12 6 vs 15 6 vs 18 2 BLESSING 12 vs 6 12 vs 12 12 vs 18 12 vs 24 12 vs 30 12 vs 36 3 BLESSING 18 vs 9 18 vs 18 18 vs 27 18 vs 36 18 vs 45 18 vs 54 4 BLESSING 24 vs 12 24 vs 24 24 vs 36 24 vs 48 24 vs 60 24 vs 72 5 BLESSING 30 vs 15 30 vs 30 30 vs 45 30 vs 60 30 vs 75 30 vs 90 6 BLESSING 36 vs 18 36 vs 36 36 vs 54 36 vs 72 36 vs 90 36 vs 108
Add that creatures without blessings is better than blessings without creatures, and that Holy Runes are faster (turn 1 double/triple/multiple damage increase instead of turn 2). Also, no Air quanta needed to Dive.
This is true. However, depending on Rune's cost and stats you could have a very stable and durable 4-5 turn win deck. Nothing strange? Not until you factor in easy miracles. Think of an immorush speed deck that can Miracle multiple times in a game...
But my argument was based on maximum amount of damage for a certain number of cardsAs you can see, Rune surpasses Pegasus only when you draw 8 out of the 12 combo cards. What does this mean? That means that, in most starting hands, Pegasus will do more damage for the first three turns because the amount of combo cards in the starting hand is always less than eight (if you include non-combo quanta producers in the starting hand), and the 10 cards drawn by turn three will probably have less than 8 combo cards (three turns of two towers is a bit low for 4 runes and 4 blessings, eh?). Also, consider the chance of drawing 4 runes and 4 blessings within 4-5 turns. 4/6 is 60% of the deck; for most games, the fourth rune/blessing would likely show up somewhere around the twelfth turn. So runes can be no faster than pegasii. Maybe more consistent, but not faster.
Number of cards 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Pegasus (extra) damage 6 12 18 24 30 36 36 36 36 36 36 Rune (extra) damage 3 6 12 18 27 36 48 60 75 90 108
@The MormegilArarahragh complicated graphs :'( Not sure if I can follow along but
@patchx94
Thanks for the tables.
Remember it is easier to draw a 3+4 card set than a 1+6 card set.
3 of Card A and 4 of Card B out of 6 Card As and 6 Card Bs is 0.277777778
3 of Card B and 4 of Card A out of 6 Card As and 6 Card Bs is 0.277777778
1 of Card A and 6 of Card B out of 6 Card As and 6 Card Bs is 0.055555556
3+4/4+3 Holy Rune combo out of 6 Card As and 6 Card Bs is 0.555555556
1+6 Pegasus combo out of 6 Card As and 6 Card Bs is 0.055555556
Holy Rune is 10 times more likely to draw its optimum 7 card combo.
The following table shows the probability of each card split assuming that number of combo cards has been drawn.
Card A 1 2 3 4 5 6 Card B 0.5 0.25 0.125 0.0625 0.03125 0.015625 1 0.5 0.5 0.375 0.25 0.15625 0.09375 0.055555556 2 0.25 0.375 0.375 0.3125 0.234375 0.166666667 0.117647059 3 0.125 0.25 0.3125 0.3125 0.277777778 0.235294118 0.199052133 4 0.0625 0.15625 0.234375 0.277777778 0.294117647 0.298578199 0.308823529 5 0.03125 0.09375 0.166666667 0.235294118 0.298578199 0.370588235 0.5 6 0.015625 0.055555556 0.117647059 0.199052133 0.308823529 0.5 1
Combo Cards Drawn 2 3 4 5 6 7 Extra damage Pegasus 0,6,0 0,6,12,0 0,6,12,18,0 0,6,12,18,24,0 0,6,12,18,24,30,0 6,12,18,24,30,36 Extra damage Holy Rune 0,3,0 0,6,6,0 0,9,12,9,0 0,12,18,18,12,0 0,15,24,27,24,15,0 18,30,36,36,30,18 Average Pegasus 3 6.75 10.5 14.0625 17.4375 21 Average Rune 1.5 4.5 9 15 22.5 32
Blessed Pegusii's optimal hand of 7 cards deals the same amount of damage regardless of whether it's 1+6 or 6+1 or anything in between; only the quanta usage is different.True but the extra damage does change. The base stats including the normal dive were excluded for a better comparison with the extra damage in the Holy Rune combo.