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Elements the Game => Level 1 - Crucible => Card Ideas and Art => Crucible Archive => Topic started by: ZephyrPhantom on January 22, 2012, 01:17:42 am

Title: Hesitance | Denial
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on January 22, 2012, 01:17:42 am
(http://i.imgur.com/mohzc.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/E2v3R.png)
NAME:
Hesitance
ELEMENT:
Time
COST:
2 :time
TYPE:
Spell
ATK|HP:
TEXT:
Increase the cost of all cards in each player's hands by 1.
NAME:
Denial
ELEMENT:
Time
COST:
3 :time
TYPE:
Spell
ATK|HP:
TEXT:
Increase the cost of all cards in your opponent's hand by 1.
ART:
Zblader
IDEA:
Zblader
NOTES:
A time denial card.

It may not seem like much against a mono or duo but can potentially be an threat to Nova/Supernova rainbow decks who rely on tight quantum control, especially if you play multiple ones on the same turn.

Cards drawn after spell activation are not affected.
Cards with no cost gain +1 random quantum.
Multiple Hesitance on the same turn stack.

Similar concept here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,32133.0.html). I believe these cards are different because this one is temporary and similar to Silence in terms of use (chaining temporary denial), while Encumber is a permanent that focuses on a long-term lockdown.

Change History:
V1
Cost : 2 | 2
Cards with no cost gain +1 cost of their element.
V2
Cost : 2 | 3
Cards with no cost gain +1 random quantum.
SERIES:
Title: Re: Hesitance | Denial
Post by: willng3 on January 22, 2012, 01:32:37 am
As this is a spell, I would assume that all cards drawn after Hesitance/Denial is played would remain at their normal cost, correct?

Also, how would this affect cards with no cost?

And lastly, would the effect stack if multiple are played?
Title: Re: Hesitance | Denial
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on January 22, 2012, 01:36:51 am
As this is a spell, I would assume that all cards drawn after Hesitance/Denial is played would remain at their normal cost, correct?
Yes.
Also, how would this affect cards with no cost?
They would increase in cost by +1 of their element.
And lastly, would the effect stack if multiple are played?
Yes.
Title: Re: Hesitance | Denial
Post by: oblivion1212 on January 22, 2012, 07:45:45 am
pretty scary potential if you manage to cast these before opponent plays a pillar/tower  :o :o
Title: Re: Hesitance | Denial
Post by: OldTrees on January 22, 2012, 08:19:06 am
pretty scary potential if you manage to cast these before opponent plays a pillar/tower  :o :o
You could go first and play Time Towers and Hesitance.
Luckily, their mark would enable them to play a tower on turn 2 which would let them cast the rest of their towers.

However 2 out before any opposing pillars would be OP. That needs to be prevented or made very very rare.
Title: Re: Hesitance | Denial
Post by: Absol on January 22, 2012, 08:21:08 am
pretty scary potential if you manage to cast these before opponent plays a pillar/tower  :o :o
Ah, yes. Combined with the fact that 2 :time are easy enough to get in the first turn (assuming the player runs an upped deck) it becomes OP.
Maybe an exception for pillars and pendulums would be enough.
Title: Re: Hesitance | Denial
Post by: dragonsdemesne on January 22, 2012, 09:02:51 am
I like the card, but I think I'd make the upped one cost 1 more, and make an exemption for pillars/pends, as has already been mentioned.  It would be extremely OP to chain these on the first few turns with time towers.  If you had a few of these in the opening hand and played first, you could keep them from playing anything, and even when you ran out, they'd be able to play maybe one tower off their mark.  If you were a real dick, that's when you'd play steal.  You are playing this card in ghostmare, aren't you? 
Title: Re: Hesitance | Denial
Post by: oblivion1212 on January 22, 2012, 01:42:25 pm
If you were a real dick, that's when you'd play steal.  You are playing this card in ghostmare, aren't you?
i never knew you people wore mindgate necklaces  ^-^ ^-^

yeah, exceptions for pillars/towers/pends would be good..
Title: Re: Hesitance | Denial
Post by: Xenocidius on January 22, 2012, 02:01:08 pm
Note that any pillars/towers/pends that the opponent draws on that same turn will still be able to be played for free. (If you use Hesitance and the opponent draws a pillar immediately after, they can play it.) Whether this is enough to balance it, I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Hesitance | Denial
Post by: TheManuz on January 22, 2012, 03:18:19 pm
I like this card, i find the unupped balanced and i think that 1 more :time for the upped would balance it, even if it affects pillars and pendulums.
I have a question: why time?
Title: Re: Hesitance | Denial
Post by: OldTrees on January 22, 2012, 05:19:59 pm
Note that any pillars/towers/pends that the opponent draws on that same turn will still be able to be played for free. (If you use Hesitance and the opponent draws a pillar immediately after, they can play it.) Whether this is enough to balance it, I'm not sure.
Oh.
So it is 2 :time + 1 card + 1 upgrade to destroy 0-8 quanta of the opponent through increased costs. I am not sure if it is worth it outside the early game lockdown with silence.
Title: Re: Hesitance | Denial
Post by: willng3 on January 22, 2012, 06:43:22 pm
If it weren't for the fact that cards drawn after Hesitance/Denial was played were unaffected I would say this card would be overpowered, but as Xeno pointed out, it does nothing to stop cards drawn that turn from being free to play.  However, a similar scenario can be seen with Silence where players were concerned with first turn Silence chains creating too great of a lockdown effect, but this concern eventually fizzled out to a minor nuisance at the most.  And then it would become completely dependent on you winning the cointoss and being able to play this card first.  I'm not sure if the possibility of an early lockdown would be worth relying on the cointoss in order to make it work, so it seems balanced to me.

Incidentally, I'd definitely use this card as a counter to Speedbows since even one would slow them down significantly unless they're running a silly number of :entropy Pends/Towers.  Cremation rushes would also get a headache from facing this card because not only would you increase the cost of Cremation by 1 :fire with each use, you'd also be increasing the cost of every single card used as Cremation fodder at the same time.

This card definitely puts a huge damper on some of the faster decks out there.
Title: Hesitating
Post by: LittleFighterFox on January 22, 2012, 06:58:47 pm
As everyone is talking about the upped, I feel as though there would be no use for the unupped. Even Pandemonium can at least be combined with voodoo doll, and has a cost reduction.
What about making it so the one of the version increases the cost of abilities on your opponent's field?

Why time? It feels more like a dirty trick(courtesy of :darkness) to me.

But I really like the anti-rush, and for time's need of stalling also benefit from this.
Title: Re: Hesitance | Denial
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on January 22, 2012, 07:33:51 pm
For those of you who are all wondering : Card is :time because my intended theme for the card was affecting the elemental's perception of time rather than their physical ability to play cards ( :darkness ) - by 'hesitating' the players' reaction times are slowed (cards cost more to play), while the upped let's you 'deny' an opponent to slow down the cards they play.

Quote
As everyone is talking about the upped, I feel as though there would be no use for the unupped. Even Pandemonium can at least be combined with voodoo doll, and has a cost reduction.
What about making it so the one of the version increases the cost of abilities on your opponent's field?
The unupped actually affects you as well to compensate for the potential lockdown capability.  Increasing ability cost would be much less useful IMHO because ability-reliant decks should still be able to compensate with enough quanta production unless it's a deck like SoR Steam Machines or it is solely reliant on mark.

Quote from: Oldtrees
However 2 out before any opposing pillars would be OP. That needs to be prevented or made very very rare.
Should be already rather rare - you need 4 Time Tower/Novae and two of these, which only leaves 1 card-room for error. To minimize this error you would need to fill your deck with 6 Novae and X Time towers as needed - that's at least 18 cards or greater than half a deck. As willng3 mentioned, many of the best-case scenarios with this card require luck and being able to gain advantage in the early-game - late game Denial is a scratch at best against stockpiled quantum.

Regarding balancing in general, I can always raise the cost by 1 to make the "lockdown hands" less likely (it seems comparable to Silence in terms of hand denial.) I'll put up a poll on it.
Title: Re: Hesitance | Denial
Post by: suxerz on January 22, 2012, 07:34:32 pm
Never thought I'll be saying this or even posting something on the CIA boards, but I think I'm beginning to like this card! :D

I'm also quite surprise that I never read any card ideas similar to this because the mechanic is really simple yet interesting. I don't have any input about the elements or the cost, but IMO the part where "cards with no cost gain +1 cost of their element" is too game-breaking. It can completely stop a typical nova-graboid deck right from the start and despite your claim about duo/mono decks, I'm pretty sure it can hurt those decks too especially the ones which rely on pendulum. Therefore, I would prefer if cards with no cost gain +1 :rainbow cost (any quanta) instead.
Title: Re: Hesitance | Denial
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on January 22, 2012, 07:40:55 pm
Eh, it's true that pendulums can be crippled easily seeing as your mark is likely to be off-element from them. I'll add a poll on that too. :)
Title: Re: Hesitance | Denial
Post by: Rutarete on January 22, 2012, 10:07:14 pm
Very similar card found here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,32133.0.html). The key difference is spell and permanent.
I'm fine with it working on 0 cost cards, but I think the effect should be reverted after 1 turn, so it acts more like Silence instead.
Title: Re: Hesitance | Denial
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on January 24, 2012, 05:41:45 pm
Very similar card found here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,32133.0.html). The key difference is spell and permanent.
Yeah, that also results in a role difference - a spell like this is more comparable to Silence (chained, temporary denial that only works in the early game) while Encumber implies a more forced but less flexible lockdown.
I'm fine with it working on 0 cost cards, but I think the effect should be reverted after 1 turn, so it acts more like Silence instead.
Reworked the card according to polls and submitted to Crucible.
blarg: