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Elements the Game => Level 1 - Crucible => Card Ideas and Art => Crucible Archive => Topic started by: Flayne on May 17, 2011, 12:59:25 am

Title: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: Flayne on May 17, 2011, 12:59:25 am
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd185668/grri.png)
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd185667/grrr_uppp.png)
NAME:
Grindylow
ELEMENT:
Water
COST:
6 :water
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
4|3
TEXT:
:water :water :water :water Ice Cluster: Freeze a target Permanent for 1 turn. (Affects Stacks).
NAME:
Jengu
ELEMENT:
Water
COST:
7  :water
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
6 | 4
TEXT:
:water :water :water :water Ice Cluster: Freeze a target Permanent for 1 turn. (Affects Stacks).
ART:
Art by Flayne
IDEA:
Flayne
NOTES:
Soft PC, quite expensive since effect is powerful, quite counterable by CC cards such as Maxwell's demon, shockwave, lightning, Rage Pot, etc.

(Yes, the art was selected randomly out of my old works. Although Grindylows and Jengus were considered to look humanoid but with different color skin. If you don't know what they are, search their names.)

I am open to suggestions and opinions  :)



SERIES:

Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: Rutarete on May 17, 2011, 02:16:30 am
So you have what happens if something is placed on the flooded part but can you target one where a creature currently is?
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: Flayne on May 17, 2011, 02:21:10 am
So you have what happens if something is placed on the flooded part but can you target one where a creature currently is?
Its only for Permanents, not creatures.
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: Rutarete on May 17, 2011, 02:26:37 am
So you have what happens if something is placed on the flooded part but can you target one where a creature currently is?
Its only for Permanents, not creatures.
Edit: replace creature with permanent, and re-answer the question please
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: Flayne on May 17, 2011, 02:53:34 am
So you have what happens if something is placed on the flooded part but can you target one where a creature currently is?
Its only for Permanents, not creatures.
Edit: replace creature with permanent, and re-answer the question please
it is essentially the same mechanic as Flood but with permanents and singular targeting.
So If i target a permanent, the space it is in becomes flooded, next turn, it is destroyed.
same as flood mechanic with creatures.
Basically, its a good way to counter eternity via creature ability.
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: AngeDeMort on May 17, 2011, 03:23:39 am
This seems really strong especially when you think about how permanents are played. Flood the first couple permanent slots and the weapon slot and you get complete permanent lock down for 3 or 4 :water a turn with no threat to this card beside from spells/skills which if you get this card out early enough will be infrequent since they won't have pillars to generate quanta. Random slots would be much better than being able to target which slot gets flooded
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: Flayne on May 17, 2011, 03:33:02 am
This seems really strong especially when you think about how permanents are played. Flood the first couple permanent slots and the weapon slot and you get complete permanent lock down for 3 or 4 :water a turn with no threat to this card beside from spells/skills which if you get this card out early enough will be infrequent since they won't have pillars to generate quanta. Random slots would be much better than being able to target which slot gets flooded
But whats the point of it being random slots when its a really expensive card? waste all that  :water quanta for a chance at getting the one you want? doesn't sound very useful, Its initial cost is 7, and its ability cost is 3  :water, having multiple of these out at one go isn't wise unless you have a good way of producing  :water, in which  :water doesnt have any easy way to generate  :water quanta like some elements do, plus water needs a strong mono card since it has too many duo creatures.
also, consider inundation, its not easy pairing it up with inundation since it drains 1  :water each turn, so essentially you are wasting 4  :water  each turn for good-mid attack and PC, so multiple Grindies on field are not a good idea.
which means its actually a very slow PC, you can't just expect to lockdown the opponent's PC field in one go.
there is a cost to everything.
Plus I aimed this against very crucial weapons and shields such as Eternity and hope (before the enemy gets a chance to play it), so naturally, the player would target those slots first.
its strategic and  :water needs a strong mono card imo.
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: OldTrees on May 17, 2011, 03:51:42 am
For 9 :water I can destroy all pillars and all future permanents? Really?
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: Flayne on May 17, 2011, 03:59:52 am
For 9 :water I can destroy all pillars and all future permanents? Really?
yeah but did you read notes?
the same thing applies to it as inundation, if you kill it, all the slots are released.
I was thinking of lowering its hp so its easier to kill, like squid.
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: OldTrees on May 17, 2011, 04:13:32 am
For 9 :water I can destroy all pillars and all future permanents? Really?
yeah but did you read notes?
the same thing applies to it as inundation, if you kill it, all the slots are released.
I was thinking of lowering its hp so its easier to kill, like squid.
Quint? Cloak? Even without those a targeted flooding slot is extremely powerful because it keeps on giving.
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: Flayne on May 17, 2011, 04:27:46 am
For 9 :water I can destroy all pillars and all future permanents? Really?
yeah but did you read notes?
the same thing applies to it as inundation, if you kill it, all the slots are released.
I was thinking of lowering its hp so its easier to kill, like squid.
Quint? Cloak? Even without those a targeted flooding slot is extremely powerful because it keeps on giving.
The same applies to Inundation with Protect artifact, and if i remember correctly, it was buffed and now only requires 1  :water per turn.
basically, theres a good synergy now between Poseidon and inundation thanks to that buff.
 PA + Inundation + Poseidon = similar effect but cheaper on pillar destruction, essentially pillar drying up the player so they can't play anything at all.
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: AngeDeMort on May 17, 2011, 05:01:00 am
The same applies to Inundation with Protect artifact, and if i remember correctly, it was buffed and now only requires 1  :water per turn.
basically, theres a good synergy now between Poseidon and inundation thanks to that buff.
 PA + Inundation + Poseidon = similar effect but cheaper on pillar destruction, essentially pillar drying up the player so they can't play anything at all.
Flooding still provides wiggle room to work around it since it only floods the front and back rows and certain creature types can survive it. Trident requires a duo and can only target pillars. Perhaps since you designed it to counter crucial weapons limit it's targeting to only the weapon and shield slots? This would prevent a possible complete lock down from lack of any permanents.
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: Flayne on May 17, 2011, 05:04:43 am
The same applies to Inundation with Protect artifact, and if i remember correctly, it was buffed and now only requires 1  :water per turn.
basically, theres a good synergy now between Poseidon and inundation thanks to that buff.
 PA + Inundation + Poseidon = similar effect but cheaper on pillar destruction, essentially pillar drying up the player so they can't play anything at all.
Flooding still provides wiggle room to work around it since it only floods the front and back rows and certain creature types can survive it. Trident requires a duo and can only target pillars. Perhaps since you designed it to counter crucial weapons limit it's targeting to only the weapon and shield slots? This would prevent a possible complete lock down from lack of any permanents.
But isnt there already a dozen card ideas that specifically imply just that?
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: OldTrees on May 17, 2011, 05:17:17 am
For 9 :water I can destroy all pillars and all future permanents? Really?
yeah but did you read notes?
the same thing applies to it as inundation, if you kill it, all the slots are released.
I was thinking of lowering its hp so its easier to kill, like squid.
Quint? Cloak? Even without those a targeted flooding slot is extremely powerful because it keeps on giving.
The same applies to Inundation with Protect artifact, and if i remember correctly, it was buffed and now only requires 1  :water per turn.
basically, theres a good synergy now between Poseidon and inundation thanks to that buff.
 PA + Inundation + Poseidon = similar effect but cheaper on pillar destruction, essentially pillar drying up the player so they can't play anything at all.
Flooding Floods the last slots. This Floods the First Slot. Huge difference because Flooding permits 7 creatures unaffected by the Flooded slots. This permits 0 permanents unaffected by the Flooded slot, unless multiple are played per turn and even then it kills 1 per blitz minimum.
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: Flayne on May 17, 2011, 11:58:07 am
For 9 :water I can destroy all pillars and all future permanents? Really?
yeah but did you read notes?
the same thing applies to it as inundation, if you kill it, all the slots are released.
I was thinking of lowering its hp so its easier to kill, like squid.
Quint? Cloak? Even without those a targeted flooding slot is extremely powerful because it keeps on giving.
The same applies to Inundation with Protect artifact, and if i remember correctly, it was buffed and now only requires 1  :water per turn.
basically, theres a good synergy now between Poseidon and inundation thanks to that buff.
 PA + Inundation + Poseidon = similar effect but cheaper on pillar destruction, essentially pillar drying up the player so they can't play anything at all.
Flooding Floods the last slots. This Floods the First Slot. Huge difference because Flooding permits 7 creatures unaffected by the Flooded slots. This permits 0 permanents unaffected by the Flooded slot, unless multiple are played per turn and even then it kills 1 per blitz minimum.
So what do suggest then? random slots? or limited slots?
or
Lowering the hp of the creature so its far easier to counter with CC? (Like squid)

I Personally prefer lowering its hp as it is a strong effect, let it be more counterable like squids freeze on a stick.
Making it random slots will just render it useless unless I at least lower the cost significantly for upgraded version,
then again im lowering its stats too, so it would already have to be slightly cheaper.
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: OldTrees on May 17, 2011, 04:52:33 pm
For 9 :water I can destroy all pillars and all future permanents? Really?
yeah but did you read notes?
the same thing applies to it as inundation, if you kill it, all the slots are released.
I was thinking of lowering its hp so its easier to kill, like squid.
Quint? Cloak? Even without those a targeted flooding slot is extremely powerful because it keeps on giving.
The same applies to Inundation with Protect artifact, and if i remember correctly, it was buffed and now only requires 1  :water per turn.
basically, theres a good synergy now between Poseidon and inundation thanks to that buff.
 PA + Inundation + Poseidon = similar effect but cheaper on pillar destruction, essentially pillar drying up the player so they can't play anything at all.
Flooding Floods the last slots. This Floods the First Slot. Huge difference because Flooding permits 7 creatures unaffected by the Flooded slots. This permits 0 permanents unaffected by the Flooded slot, unless multiple are played per turn and even then it kills 1 per blitz minimum.
So what do suggest then? random slots? or limited slots?
or
Lowering the hp of the creature so its far easier to counter with CC? (Like squid)

I Personally prefer lowering its hp as it is a strong effect, let it be more counterable like squids freeze on a stick.
Making it random slots will just render it useless unless I at least lower the cost significantly for upgraded version,
then again im lowering its stats too, so it would already have to be slightly cheaper.
I think Flood slots are too hard to balance within ETG's range of power [Spark-Miracle]. Perhaps give Jengu a non Flood based effect?
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: Flayne on May 17, 2011, 05:02:53 pm
I actually was considering removing the flood effect and focusing more on the inundation sync, making it a conditionally strong mono  :water creature since  :water lacks some good mono  :water creatures. (as there are too many duos in :water)

I was considering giving it one or 2 of the following:

- giving it momentum when inundation is in play
- enhancing its stat buff when inundation is in play
- gaining +X where X= creatures underwater, though maybe a little OP with alfa toxin. (perhaps divide by 2?)

I was thinking along the lines of having a sync with Inundation.
what do you think of those 3 ideas mentioned above ^ ?
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: OldTrees on May 17, 2011, 05:13:05 pm
I actually was considering removing the flood effect and focusing more on the inundation sync, making it a conditionally strong mono  :water creature since  :water lacks some good mono  :water creatures. (as there are too many duos in :water)

I was considering giving it one or 2 of the following:

- giving it momentum when inundation is in play
- enhancing its stat buff when inundation is in play
- gaining +X where X= creatures underwater, though maybe a little OP with alfa toxin. (perhaps divide by 2?)

I was thinking along the lines of having a sync with Inundation.
what do you think of those 3 ideas mentioned above ^ ?
There are problems with giving a card a bonus that Only applies when a specific other card is around. It makes it too limited in usage.
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: Flayne on May 17, 2011, 05:51:03 pm
I actually was considering removing the flood effect and focusing more on the inundation sync, making it a conditionally strong mono  :water creature since  :water lacks some good mono  :water creatures. (as there are too many duos in :water)

I was considering giving it one or 2 of the following:

- giving it momentum when inundation is in play
- enhancing its stat buff when inundation is in play
- gaining +X where X= creatures underwater, though maybe a little OP with alfa toxin. (perhaps divide by 2?)

I was thinking along the lines of having a sync with Inundation.
what do you think of those 3 ideas mentioned above ^ ?
There are problems with giving a card a bonus that Only applies when a specific other card is around. It makes it too limited in usage.
Please specify the problems.

because imo, it would create a new diversity in card mechanics, for example, Grindylow relies on inundation, but if it is destroyed or leaves play (due to  :water absorbtion), Grindylow would lose the bonus, since it is easier demoting the creature first and making it weaker, rather than wasting a few cards in killing it directly. weaken first then kill, harder for CC, new diversity of cards.
an existing example is Mummy, Mummy has the condition where if a spell is cast from it (take note that rewind time is from another element, so its harder to actually benefit ones self, making it more of a defense mechanism) it turns into mummy.
Ive seen decks that base themselves on that strategy.
Placing a permanent-card reliant creature is no different, but instead is actually weaker and less permanent than mummy's effect which is permanent once its applied. and what about scarab? same thing applied to that.

examples:
Mummy
Scarab
Eclipse (essentially for death stalker)

Why not? it would create a different variation of card mechanics.
besides, Inundation is in the same element as Grindylow, the usage is not that limited imo.
And if you consider Schrodinger's cat, it's actually very useless in its own element and is specific for death related effects such as boneyard, condor and soul catcher.
in my opinion, schrodinger's cat was created basically for :death.
so thats an example of an existent limited use card.
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: OldTrees on May 17, 2011, 06:08:24 pm
I was pretty vague sorry.
I was referring to number of combos of a card.
Mummy and Skeleton interact with Reverse Time, Eternity, Chaos Seed and Pandamonium (4 cards)
Deathstalker and Dune Scorpion interact with Momentum, Blessing, Chaos Power, Heavy Armor/Basilisk Blood/Earth Nymph + Rage Poition/Red Nymph, Nightfall (Deathstalker)
Nightfall interacts with all Death and Darkness creatures.
Scarb interacts with Scarab, Pharaoh, Mitosis, Fractal and others
The Cat interacts with Boneyard, Bone Wall, Vulture, Soul Catcher

Note in each of the above the Card in question (left hand side) had at least 3 combos when introduced into the game. If you make a card that is significantly improved by Flooding to the point that if the interaction is balanced then the solo card is UP, then you should have it interact with at least 2 other cards options.

Card with significant synergy with Flooding does not add much to the game
Card with significant synergy with (Flooding and at least 2 other cards) adds a decent amount to the game.
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: Flayne on May 17, 2011, 07:43:46 pm
I was pretty vague sorry.
I was referring to number of combos of a card.
Mummy and Skeleton interact with Reverse Time, Eternity, Chaos Seed and Pandamonium (4 cards)
Deathstalker and Dune Scorpion interact with Momentum, Blessing, Chaos Power, Heavy Armor/Basilisk Blood/Earth Nymph + Rage Poition/Red Nymph, Nightfall (Deathstalker)
Nightfall interacts with all Death and Darkness creatures.
Scarb interacts with Scarab, Pharaoh, Mitosis, Fractal and others
The Cat interacts with Boneyard, Bone Wall, Vulture, Soul Catcher

Note in each of the above the Card in question (left hand side) had at least 3 combos when introduced into the game. If you make a card that is significantly improved by Flooding to the point that if the interaction is balanced then the solo card is UP, then you should have it interact with at least 2 other cards options.

Card with significant synergy with Flooding does not add much to the game
Card with significant synergy with (Flooding and at least 2 other cards) adds a decent amount to the game.
I see what you mean. I was only trying to create a card that would sync more with inundation, perhaps I could apply one of the following instead:

- Icy essence: gains X attack, where X= total amount of frozen creatures. (syncs with frost shield, freeze and squid)
-  :water :water Icicle cluster: Freeze a permanent for 2 turns. (soft temporary lobotomizer for CC cards such as weapons and shields) (A softer PC control)
-  :water :water Hyperthermia: Target creature gains -1/+0 (upped would be -1/-1) (a soft CC)

Personally I would prefer the softer PC option.




Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: OldTrees on May 17, 2011, 08:49:20 pm
those 3 would be better effects. I think the soft PC would be closest to the original intent. How would it affect stacks?
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: RagingAlien on May 17, 2011, 09:51:59 pm
I like the idea of being able to freeze Permanents. finally a better way to destroy the enemie's weapon with water than keep on Ice Bolting him, hoping to get lucky. XD
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: Flayne on May 17, 2011, 10:52:57 pm
those 3 would be better effects. I think the soft PC would be closest to the original intent. How would it affect stacks?
I like the idea of being able to freeze Permanents. finally a better way to destroy the enemie's weapon with water than keep on Ice Bolting him, hoping to get lucky. XD
Stacks would be affected the same way Protect Artifact does, the entire stack, seems fair and makes sense. however, since it could potentially stop the opponent's pillar production, i'd have to make it one turn on unnupped and 2 turns on upped
 (same type of upgrade "freeze" has when it is upgraded to "Congeal", but lowered by 2 levels)

the ability cost will also have to be 3-4 :water, so then spamming it each turn on the same slot would waste quanta.
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: Flayne on May 18, 2011, 07:38:35 pm
The card has been changed.

Open to suggestions /opinions.
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: OldTrees on May 18, 2011, 08:41:30 pm
It takes 12 :water  +8 :water per turn to lock down pillar production for a mono.
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: Flayne on May 18, 2011, 08:48:25 pm
It takes 12 :water  +8 :water per turn to lock down pillar production for a mono.
Is that bad?
20 :water too expensive ?
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: OldTrees on May 18, 2011, 08:53:02 pm
It takes 12 :water  +8 :water per turn to lock down pillar production for a mono.
Is that bad?
20 :water too expensive ?
I think it is and should be really expensive to lock down the quanta production of a mono.
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: Flayne on May 18, 2011, 08:57:24 pm
It takes 12 :water  +8 :water per turn to lock down pillar production for a mono.
Is that bad?
20 :water too expensive ?
I think it is and should be really expensive to lock down the quanta production of a mono.
So what should I do? I propose the following:

-Making both versions to freeze a permanent for 1 turn only for 3  :water cost on ability
or
- Lowering atk/def stats of the creature
or
- A drastic expense, make it 5  :water ability cost to freeze for 2 turns
or
- Increasing Summoning cost by 1-2  :water
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: OldTrees on May 18, 2011, 09:55:34 pm
It takes 12 :water  +8 :water per turn to lock down pillar production for a mono.
Is that bad?
20 :water too expensive ?
I think it is and should be really expensive to lock down the quanta production of a mono.
So what should I do? I propose the following:
-snip-
I think it is and should be really expensive to lock down the quanta production of a mono.
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: Flayne on May 18, 2011, 10:51:40 pm
It takes 12 :water  +8 :water per turn to lock down pillar production for a mono.
Is that bad?
20 :water too expensive ?
I think it is and should be really expensive to lock down the quanta production of a mono.
So what should I do? I propose the following:
-snip-
I think it is and should be really expensive to lock down the quanta production of a mono.
So its fine as it is? anything else to add? (sorry, Im a little slow sometimes  :)) )
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: OldTrees on May 18, 2011, 11:50:12 pm
It takes 12 :water  +8 :water per turn to lock down pillar production for a mono.
Is that bad?
20 :water too expensive ?
I think it is and should be really expensive to lock down the quanta production of a mono.
So what should I do? I propose the following:
-snip-
I think it is and should be really expensive to lock down the quanta production of a mono.
So its fine as it is? anything else to add? (sorry, Im a little slow sometimes  :)) )
I think it is fine.
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: Flayne on May 19, 2011, 04:05:23 pm
Any more comments before this goes into crucible?
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: manaboy100 on May 20, 2011, 09:01:50 am
Soo, this means  :water/ :air is going to get PC?
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: Flayne on May 20, 2011, 03:30:38 pm
Soo, this means  :water/ :air is going to get PC?
I'm not sure I follow  :-\
Its a mono creature.
Title: Re: Grindylow | Jengu
Post by: OldTrees on May 20, 2011, 05:42:57 pm
Soo, this means  :water/ :air is going to get PC?
Yes and No
Yes. Freezing permanents is PC.
No. Targeting the opponent with shockwave only targets the weapon not the other permanents.
blarg: