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Offline OldTreesTopic starter

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Re: Fission | Fission https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31552.msg404866#msg404866
« Reply #60 on: October 05, 2011, 09:03:56 pm »
You are cheating the bank of  :electrum but paying more quanta in a match. Sound fair? That is how Fractal works.

Fission + Light Dragon costs 16 quanta of 2 types and gives you 6 RoLs.
Ray of Light + Fractal costs 9 quanta of 1 type and gives you ~8 RoLs (including the first).
Fractal is cheaper and gives more.
The fission wouldn't be your main strategy, just an additive measure. So it's more like "Fission costs 4 quanta of 1 type and gives you 6 RoLs."

And, mark of :entropy, replace some photons with 3-4 fissions, you've just made fractal/RoL stronger than it needs to be.

Forget this example, though. Just explain to me how you think it's balanced. The upgraded version.
If you discount the cost of Sacrificing a creature (aka the cost to get that creature) then you are ignoring the balancing mechanic. As I pointed out, sacrificing a dragon puts Fission as more expensive than another Fractal. If you do not see sacrificing the dragon as a cost then how did you get it on the field to sacrifice?

Lets assume the unupped is balanced
Fission + Voodoo Doll -> 8 Photons
Cost: 3 :entropy + 2 :darkness + 2 cards -> 0 quanta + 8 cards
Since quanta costs of 2 types are roughly equivalent to quanta costs of 1 type +1, we can convert this to
Cost: 6 quanta + 2 cards -> 0 quanta + 8 cards
This is a 1quanta->1cards ratio

Fission unupped costs 3 :entropy + 1 card + duo = ~5 cost units
Fission upped costs 4 :entropy + 1 upgrade + 1 card + trio = ~9 cost units
Upgrades range from 1-2 quanta worth (with some 0 and 3s). In this case it is worth about 2.
Notice efficient use of Fission upgraded would require a trio. Trio costs are roughly equivalent to duo costs +1.
Ray of Light is worth about twice as much as Photon. (1 card vs 1 card + 1 upgrade [valued at 1 see Dragonfly])

So double the value (Photon -> Ray of Light) about double the cost (5 -> 9 cost units).
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TakoMan02

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Re: Fission | Fission https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31552.msg404876#msg404876
« Reply #61 on: October 05, 2011, 09:13:25 pm »
No; I know the unupped version is balanced. The upped version isn't balanced in my opinion, so can you go into detail with just the upped version?

Sacrificing something as cheap as a voodoo doll in exchange for 10 RoL is a little OP'd to me, considering it does more work than a fractal for about half the price. And yes, I factored in the cost of the voodoo doll.

Since you like equations, I'll make one.
Voodoo doll + Fission == Fractal + RoL
 :darkness :darkness + :entropy :entropy :entropy :entropy :entropy ==  :aether :aether :aether :aether :aether :aether :aether :aether :aether
0 ATK | 20 DF --> 10 ATK | 10 DF == Light Dragon == 7 Quanta from two elements that go good together.

Offline OldTreesTopic starter

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Re: Fission | Fission https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31552.msg404879#msg404879
« Reply #62 on: October 05, 2011, 09:18:55 pm »
No; I know the unupped version is balanced. The upped version isn't balanced in my opinion, so can you go into detail with just the upped version?
I just did?
It provides roughly twice the benefit for roughly twice the cost.
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TakoMan02

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Re: Fission | Fission https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31552.msg404880#msg404880
« Reply #63 on: October 05, 2011, 09:22:45 pm »
What I mean is: don't compare it to the unupped, compare it to itself by explaining it and only it.

Also, I explained myself better.

Offline OldTreesTopic starter

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Re: Fission | Fission https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31552.msg404887#msg404887
« Reply #64 on: October 05, 2011, 09:36:37 pm »
Hope assumed:
RoL + Fractal = 2 cards+ 2 upgrades[valued at 1 and 1] + 9 :aether + Duo = 14 cost units for ~8 RoLs = 0.6 RoLs/quanta
Voodoo + Fission = 2 cards + 2 upgrades[valued at 1 and 2] + 2 :darkness + 4 :entropy + Trio = 13 cost units for 10 RoLs = 0.8 RoLs/quanta

Fission is cheaper but still of comparable (0.6 vs 0.8 ) cost to Fractal. However it will cause the deck to be more unstable as you need 2 non Light quanta types so the deck will not be able to rely on just a Mark and Light Pendulums.

I think raising the cost to 5 :entropy would be a safe move.
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TakoMan02

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Re: Fission | Fission https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31552.msg404889#msg404889
« Reply #65 on: October 05, 2011, 09:44:30 pm »
I think raising the cost to 5 :entropy would be a safe move.
Good idea, I like it.

Also, a card art suggestion: http://localhostr.com/files/uJ88qOU/Fission.jpg
It's splitting something in two
Fission's create a large amount of energy, the lightning
It's really bright, the photons/RoLs

The colors, somewhat irrelevant, but it goes good with entropy purple :p

Offline Pineapple

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Re: Fission | Fission https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31552.msg404901#msg404901
« Reply #66 on: October 05, 2011, 10:03:49 pm »
If you only balance Fission to the most OP case, then you may inadvertently force synergy within the OP case and exclude synergy outside the OP case. Also, note that RoL isn't balanced exclusively for RoL/Hope.

My calculations:

RoL + Fractal = 2 cards + 9 :aether = 8 RoLs
Sacrifice (X Cost, Y HP) + Fission (Z :entropy) = 2 cards + X + Z + 2 (duo) = Y/2 RoLs

Set them equal to each other:

8 RoLs = Y/2 RoLs
Y = 16
X = 4 (+4 for having more than 11 HP. 1 ATK things have 0 cost, Armagio has 1 ATK and 25 HP. I believe voodoo doll has a cost decrease for having 0 ATK and an expensive, in terms of cards, ability)

2 cards + 9 :aether = 2 cards + 4 + Z + 2
9 :aether = 6 + Z
3 = Z

Derp?

Offline OldTreesTopic starter

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Re: Fission | Fission https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31552.msg404919#msg404919
« Reply #67 on: October 05, 2011, 10:23:55 pm »
1)
Duo only adds 1 compared to mono. (Trio adds 1 compared to duo.)

2)
I would assume the sacrifice would be one of
Voodoo Doll
[+ 2 :darkness +1card -> 10 RoL]
Basilisk Blood + Gnome Gemfinder
[+ 2 :earth + 2 cards -> 11 RoL]
Armagio
[+ 5 :gravity +1 card -> 12 RoL]
Titan + Animate Weapon
[+ 5 :gravity +1 :rainbow +3 cards -> 23 RoL]
not a X|16 for 4 :underworld.

This is partially the reason I started with the 4 cost.
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Re: Fission | Fission https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31552.msg405044#msg405044
« Reply #68 on: October 06, 2011, 01:02:45 am »
I can't believe people say the upgraded card should cost 3.

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Re: Fission | Fission https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31552.msg405047#msg405047
« Reply #69 on: October 06, 2011, 01:06:03 am »
y should it cost more?its upgraded so it should do upgraded photons anyways. it's not like ray's of lights are stronger.

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Re: Fission | Fission https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31552.msg405060#msg405060
« Reply #70 on: October 06, 2011, 01:19:17 am »
y should it cost more?its upgraded so it should do upgraded photons anyways. it's not like ray's of lights are stronger.
Rays of Light are both effective pillars and fuel for the powerful Hope shield. They are much stronger.
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Offline OldTreesTopic starter

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Re: Fission | Fission https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31552.msg405064#msg405064
« Reply #71 on: October 06, 2011, 01:24:28 am »
y should it cost more?its upgraded so it should do upgraded photons anyways. it's not like ray's of lights are stronger.
Ray of Light is twice (yes, almost precisely 2x as valuable) as strong as a Photon. That generate quanta is most useful.
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anything
blarg: