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Offline furballdn

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Re: Energy Wyrm | Energy Wyrm https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41927.msg520410#msg520410
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2012, 03:40:20 am »
Using it as a bomb is an initial investment of 1 :light. After that, compare with UG:
UG=5 :air + 1 :fire + 1 turn
Energy wyrm bomb=6 :aether + 2 cards

Balanced?

Also, a 10|1 creature by itself should have a relatively high cost, and if you have a reflect up, then this has psuedo invincibility.

Offline Drake_XIVTopic starter

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Re: Energy Wyrm | Energy Wyrm https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41927.msg520419#msg520419
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2012, 03:49:15 am »
The idea was to have self-destruct as a way for compensating for higher attack.  But yeah, it wouldn't hurt to drop attack with this change...

Offline furballdn

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Re: Energy Wyrm | Energy Wyrm https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41927.msg520422#msg520422
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2012, 03:57:28 am »
Anything under 5 quanta can be easily slipped into a rainbow. And worse, if that rainbow has a reflect shield, they just paid measley quanta for a dragon that's psuedo invincible.

Offline ZephyrPhantom

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Re: Energy Wyrm | Energy Wyrm https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41927.msg520423#msg520423
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2012, 03:58:29 am »
Initial Thoughts:
So essentially, a spell damage dragon creature that deals damage to you when it dies.

Your average ordinary dragon is 10 Quanta for 10 Attack - 1/1 ratio.
Psion is a 4 :aether creature for 4 Attack (Spell damage).
Based on the fact that for most vanilla creatures attack=cost, assume Spell Damage is a +0 factor to cost.

Ability Thoughts:
The singular limitation (Unstable) is reminiscent of a weapon - in general weapons do get -3 to their cost for having only one slot to play them in.
Based on the fact this card tries to limit itself to one copy at a time (much like a weapon), I'll guess it's worth a -3.

Regarding damaging yourself (a form of player-only damage):

Spells are difficult to compare against because most offer the liberty of targeting creatures as well.
 
UG is 20 damage to yourself for 1 Card + 8 :underworld ( cross-element :fire cost is roughly 2 quanta) -and- 1 damage to all creatures.
Thunderstorm is 1 damage to all enemy creatures for 2 quanta.
So if we removed the 'thunderstorm' from UG we would get 6 Quanta spent for 20 damage.
  • I disregard damaging your own creatures in this case because most UG setups specifically avoid having creatures or quinting them all, meaning that your 'creatures' never really get hurt in the first place.
  • Fur makes a good point that UG players have to wait one turn. I'm not exactly sure how to factor that into cost.

Halving that, we get 3 quanta for 10 damage.

So I assume 10 damage to yourself that will always happen is worth around -3 quanta.

In this case not every opponent would necessarily be able to deal 10 extra damage to you (Seeing as there are numerous other targets in a rainbow as well), especially when it shares an element with quintessence. I would downgrade the drawback to -2 value because of that.


Spoiler for Actual Balancing:
Cost = Attack + HP Factor + Ability + Bonuses

Unupped:
Attack = +10 (+10 damage unupped)
HP Factor = +0 (1-5 HP)
Ability = -3 for 'one copy limitation', -2 for potential damage, (Spell Damage is +0 - see Psion)
Bonuses:
Quote from: Oldtrees
Aether, Life and Light get -1 cost for their creatures.
So -1 for Aether Element bonus.
Result : 10 -3 -2 -1 = 4


Upped:
Attack = +13 (+10 damage unupped)
HP Factor = +0 (1-5 HP)
Ability = -3 for 'one copy limitation', -2 for potential damage, (Spell Damage is +0 - see Psion)
Bonuses:-1 for :aether types, and -1 or -2 for being upgraded.
Result : 13 -3 -2 -1 (-1 or -2) = 6 or 5

Conclusion : Final cost should be 4 | 6 .... I think. This is the first time I've tried to actually balance the 'self-destruct' damage by comparing it to other cards in the game. However I think the cost will need an increase based on the calculations above. (I would suggest you playtest a 4 | 6 cost version of this if you have the time.)

« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 04:00:19 am by Zblader »

Offline Drake_XIVTopic starter

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Re: Energy Wyrm | Energy Wyrm https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41927.msg520424#msg520424
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2012, 04:09:29 am »
Bumped up costs a little.  And added some stuff to the Notes.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 04:11:34 am by Drake_XIV »

Offline SpineApple

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Re: Energy Wyrm | Energy Wyrm https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41927.msg520552#msg520552
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2012, 12:19:50 pm »
This + pandemonium + reflective shield.
There is no "Big Crunch". The very idea of it is idiotic. If the expansion of the universe, caused by the big bang, is, in fact, what causes the flow of time, how would the big bang happen in the first place, without the universe expanding, thus time not flowing in any particular direction?

Offline Drake_XIVTopic starter

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Re: Energy Wyrm | Energy Wyrm https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41927.msg520590#msg520590
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2012, 02:26:37 pm »
This + pandemonium + reflective shield.

One, that's a trio.  Cheap, sure, but we know how wonky balance can get...

Two, you'd only be able to do that while you had 1 Energy Wyrm out.  Might as well use Lightning or something.

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Re: Energy Wyrm | Energy Wyrm https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41927.msg520599#msg520599
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2012, 02:39:59 pm »
This + pandemonium + reflective shield.

One, that's a trio.  Cheap, sure, but we know how wonky balance can get...

Two, you'd only be able to do that while you had 1 Energy Wyrm out.  Might as well use Lightning or something.
Pandemonium could PU it, but you're right. It's not stable to rely on a triple element combination and the chances for a parallel universe are very low and also unreliable.
Nice card idea.
There is no "Big Crunch". The very idea of it is idiotic. If the expansion of the universe, caused by the big bang, is, in fact, what causes the flow of time, how would the big bang happen in the first place, without the universe expanding, thus time not flowing in any particular direction?

Offline Drake_XIVTopic starter

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Re: Energy Wyrm | Energy Wyrm https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41927.msg521248#msg521248
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2012, 11:19:22 pm »
Dropped stats and costs to lower incentive of only running one, although it still exists, it should leave the player with other options.

Also lets Unstable use be a bit more convenient.

Offline esran

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Re: Energy Wyrm | Energy Wyrm https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41927.msg521308#msg521308
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2012, 02:44:17 am »
steps on psions toes, and i dont see what its purpose is.
edit: by which i mean card design purpose. its obviously super powerful to stick one of these in an aether deck.

Offline Drake_XIVTopic starter

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Re: Energy Wyrm | Energy Wyrm https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41927.msg521311#msg521311
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2012, 02:53:28 am »
While it may step on Psion's attack niche as one card, it cannot do that in droves, per se, as it will trigger Unstable, changing it's use entirely.

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Re: Energy Wyrm | Energy Wyrm https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41927.msg521367#msg521367
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2012, 05:53:25 am »
correct, but if i made a fire creature thats exactly like the fire dragon but with 2 more attack ankd unstable, that still wouldnt be balanced.
this example is meant to show that unstable cannot be balanced to, as it is not a disadvantage as long as it is accounted for deck building wise.

 

anything
blarg: