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Elements the Game => Level 1 - Crucible => Card Ideas and Art => Crucible Archive => Topic started by: rowcla on November 01, 2011, 09:34:57 am

Title: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: rowcla on November 01, 2011, 09:34:57 am
(http://i.imgur.com/NyKlJ.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/xk2PV.png)
NAME:
Cursed Mirror
ELEMENT:
Darkness
COST:
4 :darkness
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
0 | 5
TEXT:
When Cursed Mirror dies turn it into Mirror Demon
:darkness : Drain one health from target creature
NAME:
Cursed Mirror
ELEMENT:
Darkness
COST:
3 :darkness
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
0 | 5
TEXT:
When Cursed Mirror dies turn it into Mirror Demon
:darkness : Drain one health from target creature
(http://i.imgur.com/j13jE.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/j13jE.png)
NAME:
Mirror Demon
ELEMENT:
Darkness
COST:
7 :darkness
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
7 | 6
TEXT:
NAME:
Mirror Demon
ELEMENT:
Darkness
COST:
7 :darkness
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
7 | 6
TEXT:
ART:
Scaredgirl
IDEA:
rowcla
NOTES:
Intended as combo with pandemonium and cremation

Obviously Mirror demon is only obtainable through Cursed Mirror, Fractal, Nightmare and RT, not from bazaar

Cursed Mirror's activated ability gives one health to its owner after usage
SERIES:
None
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: karis on November 01, 2011, 10:56:36 am
rise demon cost a bit wll be great...     i don't think it's funny to see this thing + fractal....
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: manaboy100 on November 01, 2011, 01:23:54 pm
Fractal and unupped Pandemonium combo, which is very easy to play and very OP :>

A nerf on the second or the first card is good IMO, maybe increase Mirror's HP, so we need more CC to kill it?
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: Brontos on November 01, 2011, 02:28:35 pm
I like the concept. :)

Combos may be too powerffull right now. With Cremation, Fractal, Eclipse, etc.
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: CCCombobreaker on November 01, 2011, 04:18:18 pm
Having to kill your own 0/4 is a little annoying and prevent it from being the next grabby (unupped at least).  I like the synergy with upped Otyugh.

But the cost is too low for the demon, I'd recommend at least 5.  Especially since you can run fractal and lightning in the same duo with this guy.
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: xsindomanx on November 01, 2011, 04:25:34 pm
"Very dangerous if used right, likely to become a commonly used card in grabbix

Intended as combo with pandemonium and cremation

Obviously Mirror demon is only obtainable through Mirror demon and RT"

Tried to actually quote this, but was really confused by all the charts and gave up quickly. There seems to be an error in the last sentence. Should be:
"Obviously mirror demon is only obtainable through cursed mirror"

Looking at the comments below, so if cursed mirror is 'killed', it is replaced by a mirror demon for free? or for a  :darkness cost?
Thinking of mirror demon + fractal + RoF + thunderstorm = 50+ damage x-x
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: EmeraldTiger on November 01, 2011, 06:10:36 pm
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd233830/mirrordark.png)
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd233831/silverdark.png)
Do these work?
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on November 01, 2011, 08:14:43 pm
RT doesn't kill a creature, so that conflicts with the actual card's text - do you want to trigger the transformation through RT or not?

Having to kill your own 0/4 is a little annoying and prevent it from being the next grabby (unupped at least).  I like the synergy with upped Otyugh.

But the cost is too low for the demon, I'd recommend at least 5.  Especially since you can run fractal and lightning in the same duo with this guy.
Agreed with the above suggestion, though I'd say 6 :darkness might be more fair. (7's a little high based on GoTP, but 5 could still result in decent Fractal abuse since Darkness does have two other Fractal-fodder creatures, and one of them's devourer)
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: furballdn on November 02, 2011, 12:12:39 am
Fractalling mirror demon would be OP. Shouldn't you make mirror demon unfractalabble?
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: xsindomanx on November 02, 2011, 12:26:24 am
Fractalling mirror demon would be OP. Shouldn't you make mirror demon unfractalabble?
I think its okay this way. When you compare it to a graboid, though the cost is lower, the damage is also lower, and you also need to use other cards to kill the mirror and get the demon, which cannot be done with a single mass-cc card. (Though it is true that  :darkness has more ways of collecting quarta quickly).

Also, since you need to kill the mirror, you would need some creative ability to make it simply immune to fractal.

EDIT: Didn't understand why people were talking about the cursed demon's cost because it is only available via the mirror. But thinking of fractal, this would have aether-darkness at the top of everything with fractal + devourer -> mirror + drain life / lightning -> demon + fractal -> opponent defeated.
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: furballdn on November 02, 2011, 12:37:03 am
Yup. Drop down a mirror, lightning it, then fractal it and unleash all hell on your opponent.
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: Contrary on November 02, 2011, 04:02:40 am
I don't get it why does the mirror demon have to be so cheap.
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: OldTrees on November 02, 2011, 04:27:33 am
cost evaluation needed in thread http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,33202.msg448325#msg448325
Cursed Mirror / Mirror Demon has two True Casting Costs

1) Cursed Mirror + Lethal CC
2) Mirror Demon (from Fractal or RT)

The two methods should have approximately the same total cost. Therefore
Quanta Casting Cost of Cursed Mirror + Quanta Casting Cost of Lethal CC + 1 = Quanta Casting Cost of Mirror Demon

Mirror Demon deserves a Quanta Casting Cost of 8 :darkness|6 :darkness
In Element Lethal CC would be Drain Life with a Quanta Casting Cost of 3 :darkness|1 :darkness
Out of Element Lethal CC would be Lightning with a Quanta Casting Cost of 2 :aether|1 :aether (requiring a second element acts as an additional +1 cost)
Therefore Cursed Mirror should cost about 5 :darkness|5 :darkness.

Now Cursed Mirror's stats are insufficient for a creature with a 5 :darkness|4 :darkness casting cost. I would suggest the Cursed Mirror have 3 attack or an activated skill of equivalent worth.

Alternatively if the Mirror Demon only had 6 attack, Cursed Mirror would be balanced at 3 :darkness|2 :darkness for 1|4 stats.
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: rowcla on November 02, 2011, 05:02:04 am
Mirror demon is cheap because i forgot fractal, I had it as the same cost because I figured that ash was so this should be too, i will change that as soon as possible though

cost evaluation needed in thread http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,33202.msg448325#msg448325
Cursed Mirror / Mirror Demon has two True Casting Costs

1) Cursed Mirror + Lethal CC
2) Mirror Demon (from Fractal or RT)

The two methods should have approximately the same total cost. Therefore
Quanta Casting Cost of Cursed Mirror + Quanta Casting Cost of Lethal CC + 1 = Quanta Casting Cost of Mirror Demon

Mirror Demon deserves a Quanta Casting Cost of 8 :darkness|6 :darkness
In Element Lethal CC would be Drain Life with a Quanta Casting Cost of 3 :darkness|1 :darkness
Out of Element Lethal CC would be Lightning with a Quanta Casting Cost of 2 :aether|1 :aether (requiring a second element acts as an additional +1 cost)
Therefore Cursed Mirror should cost about 5 :darkness|5 :darkness.

Now Cursed Mirror's stats are insufficient for a creature with a 5 :darkness|4 :darkness casting cost. I would suggest the Cursed Mirror have 3 attack or an activated skill of equivalent worth.

Alternatively if the Mirror Demon only had 6 attack, Cursed Mirror would be balanced at 3 :darkness|2 :darkness for 1|4 stats.
Really dont want cursed mirror to have attack, however perhaps some kind of skill which would allow it to take damage? maybe for  :darkness: put an infect counter on it? then i would have to Increase the health or something, perhaps cost 4 | 3, stats 0 | 5, 1  darkness can put a poison counter on it and when it dies turn into mirror demon which is 7 | 6 for 7  :darkness

(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd233830/mirrordark.png)
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd233831/silverdark.png)
Do these work?
Great! thanks a lot!
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: OldTrees on November 02, 2011, 05:05:11 am
The skill added should have a purpose beyond killing the mirror. In fact, it would be best if the skill could not kill the mirror.
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: rowcla on November 02, 2011, 05:07:54 am
hmm, what do you suggest then?
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: OldTrees on November 02, 2011, 05:20:14 am
hmm, what do you suggest then?
you're the author.
Just make it an ability that does not kill Cursed Mirror, is worth the equivalent of 3 :darkness and might make the opponent want to kill Cursed Mirror.
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: rowcla on November 02, 2011, 05:30:17 am
Interesting thought, maybe i could up the cost and give it, X  :darkness create a daughter creature of target creature where X is the creatures cost

hmm, maybe that would be a bit op...
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: OldTrees on November 02, 2011, 05:33:11 am
Interesting thought, maybe i could up the cost and give it, X  :darkness create a daughter creature of target creature where X is the creatures cost

hmm, maybe that would be a bit op...
That would probably be too ambitious. Not to mention X costs don't work in EtG at this time.
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: rowcla on November 02, 2011, 05:37:55 am
I suppose

Id like it to be something to do with creating copys of stuff though as its a mirror...

Hmm, interesting thought, perhaps give it the ability to destroy creatures, then when the opponent destroys it, each creature returns to its owners control.

What should this cost though...
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: OldTrees on November 02, 2011, 05:41:14 am
I suppose

Id like it to be something to do with creating copys of stuff though as its a mirror...

Hmm, interesting thought, perhaps give it the ability to destroy creatures, then when the opponent destroys it, each creature returns to its owners control.

What should this cost though...
The is no grave. There never will be a grave. (paraphrased from Zanz)
Additionally, "destroy target creature" is worth much more than 3 :darkness.
Remember that a single quint would protect the ability even in the face of Spine Carapace.
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: rowcla on November 02, 2011, 05:48:06 am
I suppose

Id like it to be something to do with creating copys of stuff though as its a mirror...

Hmm, interesting thought, perhaps give it the ability to destroy creatures, then when the opponent destroys it, each creature returns to its owners control.

What should this cost though...
The is no grave. There never will be a grave. (paraphrased from Zanz)
Additionally, "destroy target creature" is worth much more than 3 :darkness.
Remember that a single quint would protect the ability even in the face of Spine Carapace.
aah damn, well scratch that idea then.

maybe it can damage your opponents creatures in some way, perhaps drain 1 health of target creature for 1  :darkness?

balanced?
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: OldTrees on November 02, 2011, 05:50:14 am
I suppose

Id like it to be something to do with creating copys of stuff though as its a mirror...

Hmm, interesting thought, perhaps give it the ability to destroy creatures, then when the opponent destroys it, each creature returns to its owners control.

What should this cost though...
The is no grave. There never will be a grave. (paraphrased from Zanz)
Additionally, "destroy target creature" is worth much more than 3 :darkness.
Remember that a single quint would protect the ability even in the face of Spine Carapace.
aah damn, well scratch that idea then.

maybe it can damage your opponents creatures in some way, perhaps drain 1 health of target creature for 1  :darkness?

balanced?
Worth a shot. It seems balanced off hand.
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: rowcla on November 02, 2011, 05:57:34 am
Done!

Think its ready to be submitted?
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: CCCombobreaker on November 02, 2011, 06:45:45 pm
Not sure if your mind is totally made up yet, but I think this could be a cool card as a dark/time duo.  With the ability 'age' for :time:time : target creature grows older.  It would reduce both stats of most creatures by 1 (cannot reduce either below 0), but would turn pharoahs into mummies and hatch fate eggs.  And if it would kill a non skeleton creature, that creature would turn into a skeleton.

I know it's a little more complex, but it feels to match the flavor of the card.  So it would have the passive ability that turns the demon loose if broken and the active ability to age a creature.
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: xsindomanx on November 02, 2011, 08:56:32 pm
Bit confused by what combobreaker is saying, but I think the current card is much better than what it used to be, limiting the mirror's hp so that it can only be OTK'ed by certain spell cards, and increasing the cost of the demon. Think the demon's cost could be reduced 1 or so, but looks like it could be submitted.
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: rowcla on November 04, 2011, 07:01:45 am
hooray for getting into crucible!

please vote!
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: Contrary on November 05, 2011, 07:14:57 pm
I don't like the drain one health things. Maybe Deja-Vu? That would be pretty cool, either you kill it now and give your opponent a rad monster or face the spam.
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: OldTrees on November 05, 2011, 10:19:30 pm
I don't like the drain one health things. Maybe Deja-Vu? That would be pretty cool, either you kill it now and give your opponent a rad monster or face the spam.
Not Deja Vu. The activated ability should not have direct synergy with the passive ability.
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: Contrary on November 06, 2011, 02:59:46 am
Why not? And besides, I wouldn't call it a direct synergy. Something like Immolation on a stick I'd consider a direct synergy. It is a powerful synergy, but "having more of something" doesn't synergize more with "turn into monster when killed" more than most abilities.

And again, why not? Scarab's passive has direct synergy with its active ability. If it's an issue of power then prices and ability costs can be fudged with.
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: furballdn on November 06, 2011, 03:02:18 am
When it drains health, does it gain 1hp each time it drains one?
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: OldTrees on November 06, 2011, 03:24:28 am
Why not? And besides, I wouldn't call it a direct synergy. Something like Immolation on a stick I'd consider a direct synergy. It is a powerful synergy, but "having more of something" doesn't synergize more with "turn into monster when killed" more than most abilities.

And again, why not? Scarab's passive has direct synergy with its active ability. If it's an issue of power then prices and ability costs can be fudged with.
The ability was added to balance using Cursed Mirror without the intention of destroying the Mirror. It is a side effect of the twisting required for the balancing of these kind of cards for both usages.

Summon then Deja Vu then use CCx2 to create monster x2. That is direct synergy in this case. Since the ability was to enable both usages of the passive (offensive and antiCC) it cannot have direct synergy.
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: rowcla on November 06, 2011, 03:38:16 am
When it drains health, does it gain 1hp each time it drains one?
You gain one health, ill add that tho the notes

I agree with OldTrees above, the current ability adds more use for it and forces the opponent to consider whether he should kill the mirror or let it slowly kill off his
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: Contrary on November 06, 2011, 04:49:44 am
The ability was added to balance using Cursed Mirror without the intention of destroying the Mirror.
I still disagree that is a direct synergy, but I see the reasoning now. I think that a reason to never destroy the mirror is good design.
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: OldTrees on November 06, 2011, 04:56:03 am
The ability was added to balance using Cursed Mirror without the intention of destroying the Mirror.
I still disagree that is a direct synergy, but I see the reasoning now. I think that a reason to never destroy the mirror is good design.
A general rule of balancing is
"Balance is found where the player is ambivalent between choosing to use the effect and choosing not to pay the cost."
when costs are paid in multiple batches it is best if the player remains ambivalent even after the first cost is paid.
Title: Re: Cursed Mirror | Cursed Mirror
Post by: rowcla on December 17, 2011, 09:32:51 pm
Thanks to Scaredgirl for the new art!

Good stuff!
blarg: