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Re: Overgrowth | Jungle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14489.msg188135#msg188135
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2010, 03:30:59 am »
CURATOR COMMENT
-Leave the ATK|HP section of the table blank if the card is not a creature (For Overgrowth | Jungle). "N/A" is inappropriate, as the letters can technically denote stats (See 'Scarab')




Personally, I think that the initial cost should be cheaper, and the CUMULATIVE absorption should be dramatically increased to 3 :life per turn. This way, it sort of follows the concept of Flooding in that it requires a notable amount of :life quanta to work right, but when it does, it produces a lot of flora that can devastate the opponent.

The Trees' passive growth effect is cute, but I'm assuming that they start out weak because of this, correct? If that's the case, you should probably make their HP higher while giving them 0 attack - this way, they're more resistant towards CC effects, but are poor damage dealers unless they're left untouched over time.

Just my suggestions, of course. ^^;
ATK|HP fixed

The difference between Absorb per turn (flooding) and Cumulative Absorb per turn (Overgrowth) is:

At Turn T
Absorb X per turn absorbs X quanta
Cumulative Absorb Y per turn absorbs YT quanta

Total from turn 1 to turn T
Absorb X per turn absorbed XT quanta
Cumulative Absorb Y per turn absorbs Y(T^2-T)/2 quanta

Example
At Turn 6
Absorb 3 per turn absorbs 3 quanta
Cumulative Absorb 1 per turn absorbs 6 quanta

Total from turn 1 to turn 6
Absorb 3 per turn absorbed 18 quanta
Cumulative Absorb 1 per turn absorbed 21 quanta

Cumulative Absorb requires more quanta in the long run than Absorb and will eventually drain all the quanta of that type.


Making the trees more CC resistant sounds like a good idea.

My thoughts and recalculations for cost benefit analysis check here but beware it involves tetrahedral numbers.
0|3 and 0|5 stats means at turn T for 5+(T^2-T)/2 :life the Trees will deal a total of (T^3-3T^2+2T)/6 damage or (T^2-3T+2)/6 average damage per turn.

This is an unacceptable cost/benefit ratio (At turn 60 it has not even dropped below 3/1)

1|3 and 1|5 stats means at turn T for 5+(T^2-T)/2 :life the Trees will deal a total of (T^3-T)/6 damage or (T^2-1)/6 average damage per turn. (At turn 60 Cost/Benefit=2.9)

2|3 and 2|5 stats means at turn T(T>1) 5+(T^2-T)/2 :life the Trees will deal a total of (T^3+3T^2+2T)/6 damage or (T^2+3T-2)/6 average damage per turn. (At turn 60 Cost/Benefit=2.8)

Wow I have seriously underpowered this card. Back to the drawing board. 3 Trees per turn? That would triple its effect but make it useless after 7 turns.

TurnQuanta Used/AbsorbedTreesTotal base damageTotal growth damageAverage base damage per turnAverage growth damage per turnAverage damage per turn if B=1Average damage per turn if B=1/Quanta used/Absorbed
153000000/5=0.00
2663B03B/203/23/12=0.25
3899B33B144/8=0.50
4111218B129B/2315/215/22=0.68
5151530B306B61212/15=0.80
6201845B6015B/21035/235/40=0.88
7262163B1059B152424/26=0.92
Notes for table
Quanta used does not count quanta that would be absorbed that turn. It only includes quanta absorbed on previous turns and the initial casting cost.

With this change it would give life an uncontrollable force (with the exception of 2 Plagues, Plague and Otyugh, PC and Plague and attempts in a similar vein) that filled the board with creatures (great synergy with Feral Bond) but is less quanta efficient than a skeleton and continues to consume more and more quanta until there is none left.


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Offline ratcharmer

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Re: Overgrowth|Jungle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14489.msg189996#msg189996
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2010, 03:33:28 am »
I think you've overlooked a few things when considering the balance of this card:

-In your cost/benefit analysis you have not considered that this is a single card doing everything, nor have you looked at stats for what happens if you play more than one. Number of cards used is at least as important as amount of quanta, if not more so. The quanta use and speed of the card can  both be boosted a lot by playing a second one, and then destroying the first when your field fills.

-If growth is a passive skill (as has been said by others, but not Oldtrees unless I missed it) then this makes a HUGE difference in gameplay, as luciferase can be used with creatures that only have a passive skill. Throw in a leaf dragon and the quanta drain problems disappear.

-There's really no effective counter strategy. Rush decks can't kill it fast enough thanks to the synergy with feral bond, creature control is utterly hopeless (even with 2 plagues it will be 5 turns before the first tree dies), trying to stall/deckout is hopeless since the trees have no upper damage limit and can just plow through almost any form of stalling, and even if you do successfully stall then at the end of it you're just facing bigger trees. Permanent control could slow it down-but you still couldn't get rid of the trees already on the field. Only things I see being a threat are flooding, gravity shield, an early pulvy or BE combined with a really strong offence.

-Listing total quanta used but not quanta used that turn is a little deceptive. 26 quanta by turn 7 may sound like a lot, but using up 27 quanta total by the seventh turn is really very little. Your opponent will be long dead before the jungle  drains you dry.

-The field can hold 23 creatures, not 21, so it would keep spawning trees into turn 8. Even after that the existing trees keep growing, so each turn you'll do 23 more damage than the turn before. I don't understand where you're coming from with "useless after turn 7"

And now a few more general questions:
-Do the trees still grow if frozen/delayed? (devourer still drains)

-If I put adrenaline on a tree will it grow multiple times? (at least until it gets to big to be affected)

-Do the trees grow before or after they deal damage that turn? It actually makes a pretty big difference in total damage over time, and it isn't clear.

-If I steal an overgrowth does the cumulative upkeep reset? (see phase shield & sundial)

-You haven't defined all your variables, it makes your calculations very hard to follow without telepathy.

In general I think buffing it to 3 trees per turn is way to much. In general, you could just turn your mark to :fire or :darkness to throw in some perm control and have a very nearly unbeatable deck.

Offline OldTreesTopic starter

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Re: Overgrowth|Jungle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14489.msg190050#msg190050
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2010, 05:05:17 am »
Thank you ratcharmer! I knew I was forgetting to take something into account but I could not think of what exactly. You are the first person with detailed evaluation of the card thank you very much. +Karma.

I think you've overlooked a few things when considering the balance of this card:

-In your cost/benefit analysis you have not considered that this is a single card doing everything, nor have you looked at stats for what happens if you play more than one. Number of cards used is at least as important as amount of quanta, if not more so. The quanta use and speed of the card can  both be boosted a lot by playing a second one, and then destroying the first when your field fills.
Yes I did miss this. I will need to evaluate this in depth. Some questions to guide me on this:
How much of an increase in cost should card advantage require?
[X cards of Y cost turned into a card costing Y+F(X,Y)]
How should I estimate multiple Overgrowth|Jungles at once? (Each Tree only grows by +1|+1 per turn not +1|+1 per Overgrowth|Jungle)
How should I factor in the bonus due to the 2nd later Overgrowth|Jungles played after the 1st expires or is destroyed?

-If growth is a passive skill (as has been said by others, but not Oldtrees unless I missed it) then this makes a HUGE difference in gameplay, as luciferase can be used with creatures that only have a passive skill. Throw in a leaf dragon and the quanta drain problems disappear.
No. It is not a passive skill. It just is not an activated ability. (I did not notice where others had said it was a passive skill. I will clarify that immediately) As you recognized it would be a nightmare as a passive ability.

-There's really no effective counter strategy. Rush decks can't kill it fast enough thanks to the synergy with feral bond, creature control is utterly hopeless (even with 2 plagues it will be 5 turns before the first tree dies), trying to stall/deckout is hopeless since the trees have no upper damage limit and can just plow through almost any form of stalling, and even if you do successfully stall then at the end of it you're just facing bigger trees. Permanent control could slow it down-but you still couldn't get rid of the trees already on the field. Only things I see being a threat are flooding, gravity shield, an early pulvy or BE combined with a really strong offence.
Yes the only counter strategies are expensive which is why I think that the card should end up as an inefficient damage dealer to make up for its resilience.

-Listing total quanta used but not quanta used that turn is a little deceptive. 26 quanta by turn 7 may sound like a lot, but using up 27 quanta total by the seventh turn is really very little. Your opponent will be long dead before the jungle  drains you dry.

-The field can hold 23 creatures, not 21, so it would keep spawning trees into turn 8. Even after that the existing trees keep growing, so each turn you'll do 23 more damage than the turn before. I don't understand where you're coming from with "useless after turn 7"
I was hoping that it would end up as a stall deck card due to my goal of it being inefficient. As such I recorded both quanta per turn and total quanta comparisons between Absorb and my new mechanic Cumulative Absorb.
I said it was useless after turn 7 because on each prior turn it was inefficient as the added cost kept up with the added benefit. At turn 8 some of the added benefit would be muted so I discounted it.


And now a few more general questions:
-Do the trees still grow if frozen/delayed? (devourer still drains)
No.
-If I put adrenaline on a tree will it grow multiple times? (at least until it gets to big to be affected)
No.
-Do the trees grow before or after they deal damage that turn? It actually makes a pretty big difference in total damage over time, and it isn't clear.
After
-If I steal an overgrowth does the cumulative upkeep reset? (see phase shield & sundial)
I did not think of this but: Yes
-You haven't defined all your variables, it makes your calculations very hard to follow without telepathy.
Sorry I thought it was clear but then again I wrote it. I will try to clean it up.
In general I think buffing it to 3 trees per turn is way to much. In general, you could just turn your mark to :fire or :darkness to throw in some perm control and have a very nearly unbeatable deck.
After you evaluation I think I should reduce it to 2 Trees|Elite Trees per turn and with your help do more detailed calculations to check if it needs to be reduced more.


What do you think of the spoilered change?
Here is my new version's calculations
Data Table
Casting Cost [X] = 12
Cumulative Absorb [A] =1
Number of Trees|Elite Trees produced per turn [N] = 2
Amount Trees grow per turn [G] = +1|+1
Turn [T]
TurnTotal Quanta cost before battleQuanta Absorbed at end of this turnNumber of Trees at end of this turnDamage this turnTotal Damage
TX+A(T)(T-1)/2ATNTNG(T-1)(T-2)/2NG(T)(T-1)(T-2)/6
1121200
2132400
3153622
4184868
5225101220
6276122040
7337143070
84081642112

Comparison to a Single Behemoth
Casting Cost [X] = 12
Cumulative Absorb [A] =1
Total Quanta cost before battle [Q] = X+A(T)(T-1)/2 = 12+(T)(T-1)/2
Amount Trees grow per turn [G] = +1|+1
Number of Trees|Elite Trees produced per turn [N] = 2
Damage this turn [d] = NG(T-1)(T-2)/2 = (T-1)(T-2)
Turn [T]
TurnQdCreature inefficencyNumber of Trees at start of turnCost of Card Advantage
TQdQ-dN(T-1)(Q-d)/n
1120120n/a
21301326.50
31521343.75
41861263.00
522121082.75
627207102.70
733303122.75
840400202.00
I do not know how much card advantage should be worth but I think 2 quanta each is in the ball park.
What is your opinion?
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Re: Overgrowth | Jungle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14489.msg193256#msg193256
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2010, 03:17:08 pm »
i would like to provide you with these
If Nowhere is Somewhere, and Somewhere is Over there, How can we be Anywhere?
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Offline OldTreesTopic starter

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Re: Overgrowth | Jungle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14489.msg193303#msg193303
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2010, 04:42:15 pm »
Art Updated. Thank you Emerald Tiger.

The card also has been altered to only create 2 Trees per turn and the trees only grow while the Overgrowth|Jungle that created them exists.

More comments on any remaining imbalance please.
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Offline ratcharmer

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Re: Overgrowth | Jungle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14489.msg193397#msg193397
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2010, 07:00:55 pm »
Hmm . . . on the new version there might be some difficulty with the coding for determining which tree came from which jungle. I believe something similar was why Zanz changed voodoo doll when it was implemented.
(it wasn't possible to code for a link specifically between two creatures, so it might be hard to code for a link between a creature and a permanent)

I'm not sure if the "only the one that created them makes them grow" bit is necessary for balance anyway. I think it could work if it's just any overgrowth/jungle on the board will make them grow.

In general 2 trees/turn balances much better than 3. I think you may have overcompensated some for the card advantage when you boosted the initial cost  of the permanent. Yes the card advantage is huge, but it also takes several turns to develop. Try comparing it to FFQ when making judgments about balance.

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Re: Overgrowth | Jungle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14489.msg194723#msg194723
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2010, 04:58:00 am »
If I removed the link what do you think it should cost?

New version to be considered as seen in poll: chaining overgrowths

Total Quanta Cost as a function of Optimal Size of Chain as a function of Casting Cost
X=Casting Cost
Z=Destruction Cost
Size of ChainQuanta Cost
1X+84
22X+Z+30
33X+2Z+18
44X+3Z+13
55X+4Z+11
66X+5Z+9
Conclusion:
If we assume Z=1 (Deflagration)
Then the optimum size of chain is dependent on casting cost [X]
Casting CostOptimal Size of Chain
51<X1
11<X<522
3<X<123
0<X<44
never5
X<16
Hence Minimum Total Quanta cost for turn 8 (Total Damage>99) is dependent on the optimal size of the chain which is dependent on casting cost. [Only casting cost 0-13 shown]
Casting CostMinimum Total Cost
014
120
224
328
432
535
641
744
847
950
1053
1156
1255
1357
FFQ
EFFQ doesn't need to queen on turns 6

Comparison by Damage/Cost
TurnTotal Quanta Cost
Firefly Queen
Total Damage
Firefly Queen
Total Quanta Cost
Elite Firefly Queen
Total Damage
Elite Firefly Queen
17373
299910
311181121
413301336
515451555
6178415101
719108
So FFQ is a
7 turn kill for 19 quanta|6 turn kill for 15 quanta

Overgrowth|Jungle is a 8 turn kill but a more reliable 8 turn kill.
How much do you think it should cost?
See table for how total cost is a function of casting cost. For example 35|28 total cost would be 5|3 casting cost.

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anything
blarg: