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Solastrius

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Re: Anti-Venom | Potent Anti-Venom https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33587.msg424744#msg424744
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2011, 12:34:47 pm »
I'll try to use the plague card from death element as an example to help put things into perspective.

Plague costs 4 :death to put a single stack of poison on all opposing creatures.

To effect every ally creature and remain balanced, Anti-Venom would cost 4 :life. This would limit players to using Anti-Venom
when there's a lot of creatures already in play, as well as remove options for giving extra protection to some creatures while sacrificing others.

Improved Plague costs only 2 :death, but still applies only a single stack of poison.
Changing Potent Anti-Venom to reflect this while maintaining it's current cost would severely downgrade the card by my estimation.

Now, if you're still concerned about 2 :life being too great a cost to remove poison from a creature, please consider my next example. In the current game, the player of a life deck employs a giant frog for 2 :life and then enhances it with epinephrine for another 3 :life. Afterward, the opponent uses spine carapace. Without Anti-Venom, it is likely the player will be down 5 :life
and 2-cards from his deck very shortly, with little damage done to show for it. With Potent Anti-Venom however,
the player has the option to lose 2 :life instead and get another turn of attacks out of their giant frog.

...I simply cannot see how reducing the cost of Anti-Venom further would be beneficial to the game. Honestly I'd rather leave Anti-venom out of the game than create a new imbalance from the various decks that would use it. I must consider those using the creature-poisoning and death decks as well as those countering them.

Of course, no card is completely perfect. If anyone can argue the value in lowering Anti-Venom's cost in a balanced way, based upon a more reasonable criticism than it simply 'seems' or 'sounds' too expensive, please do so.

Brontos

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Re: Anti-Venom | Potent Anti-Venom https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33587.msg424746#msg424746
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2011, 12:51:08 pm »
The card is not sexy enough. Why should I play it over another green creature? It adds nothing to my offensive power, I gain no card advantage (in the best case, I avoid losing one), and it builds nothing strong on the field.

Please, add something to the card (draw a card, creature gain +2/+2, creature gains "venom", etc), make it a permanent, make it a creature's ability, anything but nothing. :)

My suggestion:
"remove all the poison counters on your creatures, and place them on target creature"
"remove all the poison counters on target creature, and target gains +x/+x where x is the number of poison counters removed."
"remove poison on target creature and draw one card"
"remove poison on target and target inflicts poison when it attacks"
Etc

Solastrius

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Re: Anti-Venom | Potent Anti-Venom https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33587.msg424750#msg424750
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2011, 01:14:17 pm »
The card is not sexy enough. Why should I play it over another green creature? It adds nothing to my offensive power, I gain no card advantage (in the best case, I avoid losing one), and it builds nothing strong on the field.

Please, add something to the card (draw a card, creature gain +2/+2, creature gains "venom", etc), make it a permanent, make it a creature's ability, anything but nothing. :)

My suggestion:
"remove all the poison counters on your creatures, and place them on target creature"
"remove all the poison counters on target creature, and target gains +x/+x where x is the number of poison counters removed."
"remove poison on target creature and draw one card"
"remove poison on target and target inflicts poison when it attacks"
Etc
I figured combining it with liquid shadow on a high atk / low hp creature for leeching would provide plenty of offensive use.
It is a defensive, countering-type card by design, after all.

If you dislike Anti-venom because it lacks complexity, I'm afraid that versatility of a simple nature is kinda' the point with this card. It fills a gap in game-play mechanics and adds a new strategy or two for dual-element deck building.

I would need to consider it for awhile, but it could be workable to revise it so that the target creature becomes immune to future poison attacks. My primary concern with this is that it would mean a deal of extra coding for the developers when the current way Anti-Venom is designed would probably be sufficient.

At any rate, how would your suggestions help if Anti-Venom were used on an opposing voodoo-doll to reduce your own incoming damage? Also, many of your suggestions would be harmful if Anti-Venom were used to keep someone from developing
malignant cells on their side of the playing field. I believe that increasing complexity in these ways would only serve to limit
the uses and versatility of Anti-Venom.

In my opinion, complicated does not equate to better.

Offline Zaealix

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Re: Anti-Venom | Potent Anti-Venom https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33587.msg424761#msg424761
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2011, 01:44:15 pm »
As someone who has worked with Poison decks, I can say that to price this card to match Plague, or something of that nature, is a bad idea. There are multiple ways one could capitalize on Poison damage, both to the opponent, and to creatures.
Also, a great deal of the power that posion decks have is that they essentially have 'Momentum' damage. For the most part, if you run a poison deck, almost nothing can stop your offense. Granted, there is purify, but that is a card that many decks do not to carry, meaning you can be almost certain that using posion will work as intended. The only drawback is not getting enough posion damage out before the enemy overwhelms your defenses, but I digress.
Now, that said, I think I do agree with those who say that this card requires a useage outside of poisoo blocking, simply because while poison is rather powerful mechanic, unless you build on the plan of poisoning your creatures, this card will become a dead draw far too often. I propose that it protects from poison, and grants the creature some sort of minor bonus in addition, so that it has use outside of blocking poison. As is, this card would simply become another purify, technically a hard counter to poison, but ultimatly seen as too weak to make much of a metagame difference.
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Solastrius

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Re: Anti-Venom | Potent Anti-Venom https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33587.msg424775#msg424775
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2011, 02:46:36 pm »
Thanks for all the comments thus far. I've modified the card again. I really am trying to polish it up.

You'll notice now that the basic version will heal a creature whether it has been poisoned or not.
Also, the upgraded version of the card can be placed on a creature before poisoning takes place in order to prevent
damage from starting at all.

Please continue to comment on these changes.

Offline rickerd

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Re: Anti-Venom | Potent Anti-Venom https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33587.msg424779#msg424779
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2011, 03:42:13 pm »
Nice counter for spine carapace  :)
If you're weak, then run, but toward your enemy

Offline Zaealix

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Re: Anti-Venom | Potent Anti-Venom https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33587.msg424780#msg424780
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2011, 03:48:56 pm »
This looks more appropriate. Good Job.
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