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Elements the Game => Level 1 - Crucible => Card Ideas and Art => Crucible Archive => Topic started by: furballdn on October 14, 2012, 05:56:14 am

Title: Antaeus's Rage | Antaeus's Rage
Post by: furballdn on October 14, 2012, 05:56:14 am
(http://i.imgur.com/2YZ1T.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/ZPK4j.png)
NAME:
Antaeus's Rage
ELEMENT:
Earth
COST:
3 :earth
TYPE:
Permanent
ATK|HP:

TEXT:
Burrowed creatures deal double damage.
Absorb :earth per turn.
NAME:
Antaeus's Rage
ELEMENT:
Earth
COST:
2 :earth
TYPE:
Permanent
ATK|HP:

TEXT:
Burrowed creatures deal double damage.
Absorb :earth per turn.

ART:
ddevans96
IDEA:
furballdn
NOTES:
Mechanics:
A burrowed creature deals double damage but nothing else. A 3 burrowed creature will attack as if it had 6 atk. Essentially this buffs burrow by changing burrow into an ability that only protects the creature, removing the attack penalty.

Argument for balance with Graboid:
Immortal 4atk creature is worth 6 :underworld.
This card is worth 3 :underworld + 2 cards

When playing with X numbers of Graboid:
3 :underworld + 3 X :underworld + (2+X) cards = 4X immortal atk = 6 X :underworld

1 card = 2 :underworld
3 :underworld + 3 X :underworld + 4 :underworld + 2 X :underworld = 7 :underworld + 5 X :underworld

7 :underworld + 5 X :underworld = 6 X :underworld
X = 5 :underworld

In other words, you need at least 6 Graboids with this card to make this equal to a swarm of 4atk immortals, and Graboid cannot be targetted with fractal/mitosis

Thematics:
Antaeus was a Greek half-giant who got his powers from the earth. Here, burrowed creatures are receiving nutrients, energy, and power from the earth, which is enabling them to deal more damage when they attack.
SERIES:

Title: Re: Antaeus's Rage | Antaeus's Rage
Post by: choongmyoung on October 14, 2012, 06:07:49 am
It should affect all creatures on the field including your opponent's.
Not sure about how much it should cost.
Shriekers, Gravoids, Antlions, Pests.
Title: Re: Antaeus's Rage | Antaeus's Rage
Post by: furballdn on October 14, 2012, 06:10:31 am
It should affect all creatures on the field including your opponent's.
Not sure about how much it should cost.
Shriekers, Gravoids, Antlions, Pests.
Affecting all creatures would weaken this quite a bit. Thematically, either only Antaeus blesses you or only your creatures are smart enough to make use of the energy of the earth to deal more damage.
I have the cost at 2 cards + 3|2 :earth right now.
Title: Re: Antaeus's Rage | Antaeus's Rage
Post by: choongmyoung on October 14, 2012, 06:15:36 am
It should affect all creatures on the field including your opponent's.
Not sure about how much it should cost.
Shriekers, Gravoids, Antlions, Pests.
Affecting all creatures would weaken this quite a bit. Thematically, either only Antaeus blesses you or only your creatures are smart enough to make use of the energy of the earth to deal more damage.
I have the cost at 2 cards + 3|2 :earth right now.
NightmareEdit:Nightfall, Flooding affects opponent's field, but it's not that big problem.
Your opponent will probably not carry burrowing creatures.
Title: Re: Antaeus's Rage | Antaeus's Rage
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on October 14, 2012, 06:20:17 am
It should affect all creatures on the field including your opponent's.
Not sure about how much it should cost.
Shriekers, Gravoids, Antlions, Pests.
Affecting all creatures would weaken this quite a bit. Thematically, either only Antaeus blesses you or only your creatures are smart enough to make use of the energy of the earth to deal more damage.
I have the cost at 2 cards + 3|2 :earth right now.
Nightmare, Flooding affects opponent's field, but it's not that big problem.
Your opponent will probably not carry burrowing creatures.
I disagree. See any Graboid Novabow that exists on this forum.
Title: Re: Antaeus's Rage | Antaeus's Rage
Post by: furballdn on October 14, 2012, 06:37:57 am
It should affect all creatures on the field including your opponent's.
Not sure about how much it should cost.
Shriekers, Gravoids, Antlions, Pests.
Affecting all creatures would weaken this quite a bit. Thematically, either only Antaeus blesses you or only your creatures are smart enough to make use of the energy of the earth to deal more damage.
I have the cost at 2 cards + 3|2 :earth right now.
Nightmare, Flooding affects opponent's field, but it's not that big problem.
Your opponent will probably not carry burrowing creatures.
Night falls over the whole field. Flooding floods the entire field. Only your creatures get the benefit of this since it was you who summoned and are paying quanta to Antaeus.
Title: Re: Antaeus's Rage | Antaeus's Rage
Post by: ARTHANASIOS on November 27, 2012, 09:44:33 am
I find this card trully OP but not because of Graboid; it is Shrieker who benefits the most. Play Shrieker and if it is not CCed, then burrow it to have an 8 or 10 immortal hitter. Too much, don't you think? And I haven't even mentioned the buffs a Shrieker can take before it becomes burrowed (Momentum, Adrenaline, Blessing etc.)!
Title: Re: Antaeus's Rage | Antaeus's Rage
Post by: ddevans96 on November 27, 2012, 04:31:15 pm
If you want me to do anything to the art, let me know. I still have all the layers :3
Title: Re: Antaeus's Rage | Antaeus's Rage
Post by: Rutarete on November 27, 2012, 04:46:24 pm
I find this card trully OP but not because of Graboid; it is Shrieker who benefits the most. Play Shrieker and if it is not CCed, then burrow it to have an 8 or 10 immortal hitter. Too much, don't you think? And I haven't even mentioned the buffs a Shrieker can take before it becomes burrowed (Momentum, Adrenaline, Blessing etc.)!
So? Shrieker costs 8 :earth, + 3|2 :earth for this card. Quint costs 4|3. You can use quint immediately, but this card has your shrieked wait a turn before burrowing. It's not that OP.
Title: Re: Antaeus's Rage | Antaeus's Rage
Post by: Poker Alho on November 27, 2012, 07:20:52 pm
I find this card trully OP but not because of Graboid; it is Shrieker who benefits the most. Play Shrieker and if it is not CCed, then burrow it to have an 8 or 10 immortal hitter. Too much, don't you think? And I haven't even mentioned the buffs a Shrieker can take before it becomes burrowed (Momentum, Adrenaline, Blessing etc.)!
So? Shrieker costs 8 :earth, + 3|2 :earth for this card. Quint costs 4|3. You can use quint immediately, but this card has your shrieked wait a turn before burrowing. It's not that OP.

although quint is from another element, wich makes it less powerful when compared to this, but i agree that this card doesnt seem that OP: at best it might gives us a new reason to run antlions or even burrow devourers, given they have buffs like nightfall
Title: Re: Antaeus's Rage | Antaeus's Rage
Post by: ARTHANASIOS on November 28, 2012, 08:19:32 am
@ Ruta & Poker Alho:
1) Quintessence is an off-element buff of a single creature.
2) Antaeu's Rage is a Nighfall-like card & in-element & buffs EVERY Shrieker you play.
3) Shrieker doesn't cost 8 :earth if played via Graboid.
4) Burrow is a more flexible mechanic than immortality. Immortal creatures can't be buffed, except for SoW. Burrowed creatures can be buffed, then burrowed, then be un-burrowed to be buffed again or whatever.
5) There are already good reasons to burrow Devourers|Pests. What is more irritating than a pack of Devourers immune to CC?

Seriously guys, this card is totally broken & I am not biased at all. This won't buff Antlions; it will buff Graboid-Shrieker decks instead and you know it. Just be honest here with yourselves...
Title: Re: Antaeus's Rage | Antaeus's Rage
Post by: Poker Alho on November 28, 2012, 08:05:29 pm
@ Ruta & Poker Alho:
1) Quintessence is an off-element buff of a single creature.
2) Antaeu's Rage is a Nighfall-like card & in-element & buffs EVERY Shrieker you play.
3) Shrieker doesn't cost 8 :earth if played via Graboid.
4) Burrow is a more flexible mechanic than immortality. Immortal creatures can't be buffed, except for SoW. Burrowed creatures can be buffed, then burrowed, then be un-burrowed to be buffed again or whatever.
5) There are already good reasons to burrow Devourers|Pests. What is more irritating than a pack of Devourers immune to CC?

Seriously guys, this card is totally broken & I am not biased at all. This won't buff Antlions; it will buff Graboid-Shrieker decks instead and you know it. Just be honest here with yourselves...

fix:

2) every shrieker you have burrowed, different stuff. they still are vulnerable when they evolve from graboids or played from hand

4) you may buff a shrieker more easily than an immortal creature, but if you unburrow it, its gonna stay that way until the next turn, making it vulnerable to CC once more

5) reasons? the only GOOD reason i know of is to combine SoP with devourers for a decent stall-breaker deck, usually running wardens as well

I really dont see how this card is that OP. It wont make graboid/shreiker rush any faster imo (unless you decide not to evolve your graboids lol, but thats not how i play shreiker rush), at best you can make a rush with the same speed and some CC resistance instead of running quicksands or BBs for support
Title: Re: Antaeus's Rage | Antaeus's Rage
Post by: Absol on November 28, 2012, 11:15:39 pm
^
Those weakness are the exact same as Seraph's. Except Seraph can't benefit from global buff. (and double attack modifier too)

This card can be rephrased as "burrowed creatures suffer no damage penalty", making burrow just like switched Divine Shield. In-element. With infinite duration. To ALL burrowing creatures.

Compare Seraph.
Title: Re: Antaeus's Rage | Antaeus's Rage
Post by: furballdn on December 02, 2012, 01:14:42 am
Divine Shield is +1 card to indefinitely protect 1 creature.

This is +1 card + 3 :underworld for all your burrowed creatures. Burrowing is limited and also requires +1 turn.

1 card + 3 :underworld + 1 turn (each) makes it worth more than divine shield only if you have more than 3 burrowed creatures on your field, and not many games or decks can have more than 3 burrowed creatures out along with this in a reasonably paced game.
Title: Re: Antaeus's Rage | Antaeus's Rage
Post by: ARTHANASIOS on December 02, 2012, 10:03:00 am
1st) Seraph is slightly broken and not very good for comparison, but I will compare it anyway.
2nd) Seraph is a single creature/ divine shield protects a single creature. Antaeus protects all your burrowed creatures.
3rd) Seraph has 1 hp; it can be killed by everything at the very first turn, even by a single thunderstorm. Shriekers & Elite Shriekers are beasts with 8|4 & 10|5 stats respectively. In other words, hard to kill in the very first turn.
4th) Divine shield has an off-element cost. Antaeus has an in-element cost.
5th) Unupped Shireker has a sweet Adrenaline spot of 8. Furthermore, :earth/ :gravity has lots of synergies and Momentum + Shrieker + Antaeus makes an unstoppable immortal beast.
6th) 3 or more Shriekers are not than difficult to come by. Remember, you can have up to 12 Shriekers within a deck (6 in Graboid form and 6 in Shrieker form).
7th) I repeat, this won't buff Antlions. It will buff Shriekers and, honestly, Shriekers/Graboids are the last creatures that need a buff in EtG!

nough said... I don't think I need to explain myself better than this, so I will just ignore this topic in the future. Sorry for that, Furball...
Title: Re: Antaeus's Rage | Antaeus's Rage
Post by: Poker Alho on December 02, 2012, 01:41:29 pm
unnuped shrieker has 3 hp, upped has 4 so you got that wrong. Why is it relevant for the unnuped shrieker to have a sweet spot for adrenaline? if you burrow it, you lose that sweetspot...

3 card combo that makes an unstopable and immortal creature? use PC to break Antaeus's Rage and CC to kill the shreiker before it burrows, remember that you can react to this combo! (and you forgot sundial btw so it IS stopable)

Of course its not hard to put more than 3 shreikers in play, but keep in mind that in order for that to be true, your deck needs to be centered on that detail in order to be able to do it consistently, so dont expect much room for ways to cover that 3 card combo against possible responses from the other deck
Title: Re: Antaeus's Rage | Antaeus's Rage
Post by: Absol on December 02, 2012, 01:46:28 pm
Let me just say this.
This card turns every Shrieker on field into Seraph. With an :earth upkeep. While Seraph has X :light upkeep (X = number of Seraph)
Fragility, they're the same. One shot of Lightning to end it.
Upkeep, i have to say i prefer this over Seraph. Throw in a PA. It's in-element.
(and it's 2 card combo. Antaeus and PA.)

Compare Nightfall. +2 boost to creatures compared to +4 | +5 with a quanta upkeep the only difference.

EDIT: regarding immortal unstoppable creature, it's better to use Quint. The immortality won't be broken ever.
Title: Re: Antaeus's Rage | Antaeus's Rage
Post by: furballdn on December 03, 2012, 06:50:52 am
1st) Seraph is slightly broken and not very good for comparison, but I will compare it anyway.
I do not agree Seraph is broken. 10|1 stats warrants 9 :underworld, and the ability with an off quanta upkeep is not worth more than 1 :underworld
2nd) Seraph is a single creature/ divine shield protects a single creature. Antaeus protects all your burrowed creatures.
True, which means that this will only start being more efficient if you have lots of creatures. Fielding lots of graboids/shriekers is quite costly sometimes, and this encourages antlion use
3rd) Seraph has 1 hp; it can be killed by everything at the very first turn, even by a single thunderstorm. Shriekers & Elite Shriekers are beasts with 8|4 & 10|5 stats respectively. In other words, hard to kill in the very first turn.
Shrieker has 3|4 hp actually, but there is not too large of a difference between them. As long as Seraph survives the first turn it's invincible; how many people pack thunderstorms? The only card I can say in the meta that affects seraph more than it does shrieker is firewall. Otherwise, any CC card that is used a lot can kill shrieker as well. (Lightning is the most used, with rage pot, fire bolt, and shockwave next). Unless a creature has more than 5hp, I would not call it sturdy, since creatures from [1-5]hp fall within the same bracket of being easily kill-able.
4th) Divine shield has an off-element cost. Antaeus has an in-element cost.
In my calculations, both are worth +1 card, but yes, you are correct in saying that they are not exactly equal. The cost of an off element upkeep is more than the cost of an in element upkeep. I do not see it as being more than 1 :underworld though.
5th) Unupped Shireker has a sweet Adrenaline spot of 8. Furthermore, :earth/ :gravity has lots of synergies and Momentum + Shrieker + Antaeus makes an unstoppable immortal beast.
That is already a 3 card combo, and seemingly very impractical. 4 cards + 12 :earth + 4 :life + 1 turn for an invincible 15 atk creature is not OP. A 15 invincible attack creature should cost around 23-24 :underworld. 4 cards + 12 :earth + 4 :life + 1 turn ~= 25+ :underworld
6th) 3 or more Shriekers are not than difficult to come by. Remember, you can have up to 12 Shriekers within a deck (6 in Graboid form and 6 in Shrieker form).
Very true, but having one of these on the field slows down your production dramatically. It'll cause you to have 1-2 less than if you didn't have it, and ever single creature you own unburrowed with this is bad for you because of inefficiency.
7th) I repeat, this won't buff Antlions. It will buff Shriekers and, honestly, Shriekers/Graboids are the last creatures that need a buff in EtG!
Graboid/Shrieker can be nerfed. This will make decks based on antlions like fractal antlions much more powerful since this is a card that encourages number

nough said... I don't think I need to explain myself better than this, so I will just ignore this topic in the future. Sorry for that, Furball...
I do not know how to respond to such a comment, but whatever floats your boat.

I noticed I forgot to factor the :earth upkeep in my earlier calculations. This is 2 cards + 3 :earth for immortality for all burrowed creatures.
2 cards + 3 :earth ~= 5 :underworld.

Seraph is 9X :fire + 2X cards for immortal 9 (10) hitter. 13X :underworld + 1 turn for immortal 10 (12) X damage per turn.
This and shriekers is 8X :earth + X cards + 1 :earth + 2 cards + 3 :earth + 1 turn for immortal 8 (10) hitter. 10X + 8 :underworld + 1 turn for immortal 8 (10) hitter.

Looking at it this way, the relative price would be around the same if you have 3 attackers, and you'd only get quanta advantage if you had 4 or more shriekers, but even then, seraphs do more damage than shriekers do.

A Shrieker can also be seen as 1 card + 3 :earth + 1 :time + 1 turn, but that means you'll need two whole turns before you can get the "combo" ready, a bit long to be too practical.

Eclipse is 1 card + 4 :darkness for +2X damage.
This is 2 cards + 2 :earth + 1 turn + X :earth for +4 (5) X damage, and that's if, and only if, you're using shriekers.

Nightfall/eclipse is much more flexible since it can be used alongside devourers for denial, and vampires for extra healing.
blarg: