War is coming..

[ftbhrygvn]

Then I fall back on the whole "Just because they're rivals doesn't mean they have to be on the opposite sides" thing.

Here is a screenshot from the trainer:

I didn't realize this earlier but if you look at the image, you can clearly see the rivals how Zanz made them to be. They happen to be divided exactly like I did when I first introduced this event, so I think it's safe to say that this pairing thing has been settled once and for all. The next question is, if all the elements go to war, are these rivals going to fight on the same side? Um.. probably not because it just doesn't make any sense. PuppyChow your suggestion said that Earth and Air are on the same side. What makes them special? Why aren't Light and Darkness also on the same side? Difference between our classifications is that mine is based on Elements theme while yours is based on.. I don't know what.  So the way I see it, only question left is, which Elements are "good" and which ones are "evil"? There's no clear answer to that. All we can do really is to look at the elements and divide them by according to what is generally considered Good and Evil in most cultures. And that's exactly what I did. Unfortunately there are three truths about gaming communities: 1. There are a lot of whiners 2. Everyone has an opinion 3. No matter what you do, someone will always whine. This is why events like this one should be designed and organized by a very small group of people, preferable only one person. The best policy is to just do something and ignore the complainers. If we start voting on every single detail of every single event, we will have less events and less fun. Only thing we will have more is arguing about something that in the end makes no difference at all.

That's a thing I realize the 1st time I play (partly 'cuz I'm a science geek). Light & Dark, Life & Death are obviously opposites. Earth & Air: opposites of ground and air, and stableness and freedom. Fire and Water (Ice) are opposites of temperature, and destruction and balance. Gravity & Entropy, as said, order and disorder, partly Classical Mechanics and Statistical Mechanics. Time & Aether, more than "Other Dimensions", I think more of time and space (but as in Relativity, they are actually the same thing)

[Scaredgirl]

The best policy is to just do something and ignore the complainers.

No offense intended to you ScaredGirl, seeing as what I'm about to say doesn't apply to this event at all -- but this right here is exactly the wrong attitude for any kind of event manager when it comes to balanced and fair contests. 

First off, calling anyone who disagrees with you a 'whiner' is an ad hominem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) attack that in this specific instance is both false (almost everyone who discussed balance issues in this thread did so in a calm and rational manner) and irrelevant (even if they were 'whining', that doesn't make their points invalid.)

But far more importantly, when you make up rules and you decide that they are OK a priori and then ignore people's arguments to the contrary -- especially if a lot of people bring up the same points over and over again -- you're basically deciding that your ego (or your desire to avoid more work) is more important than the actual fairness and balance of the contest.  That, in turn, means it's more important than the FUN of the contest -- at least to all of us competition-oriented players. 

Even Zanzarino listens to feedback from the players when suggesting new cards and new game mechanics, because he knows he might miss something.  "Do something and ignore the complainers" has been a hallmark of bad game (/competition) design since the dawn of time.

I think the main problem here is that you somehow assumed that you have control over the rules of this event. That's probably my fault. Maybe I haven't made it clear enough. Let me explain.

When it comes to events like this one, that Master title means nothing. You are not an Event Manager or PvP organizer, and you have zero control over what the rules will be. Basically you are in the same boat as some random guy who joined yesterday. You either join the event, or don't. That's the limit of your power over these events.

This does not of course mean that I don't listen to feedback. Of course I listen to feedback. For example you proposed that Quantum Towers should be considered cards from your element. It makes absolutely no sense and enables everyone to use rainbow decks, defeating the whole purpose of this event. And the reason you proposed this rule change was not that it makes more sense to you. The reason you proposed it was that you could build that specific deck of yours, and we both know it.

When I told you that it wasn't going to happen, you didn't take it too well, and started, what most people would call, "whining" about it. It's the same exact thing you did on the Masters event.

And did you know that feedback is generally collected AFTER the event? You know when people actually have the facts and don't have to talk in theories? That was my plan all along. Run the event, collect feedback, make the event better. That's how things are done in real life. In a fantasy world where everyone decides everything together and everyone is happy, things might be done differently.

You probably think it's noble work you are doing here but in fact what you are doing is highly negative and destructive. I don't mind spending a LOT of my spare time in organizing things like this, but I will not waste my time doing so if it's not appreciated. I'm not looking for a medal but I'm also not looking for the opposite.

After hundreds and hundreds of hours I've spent helping to build this community, I go speechless when I read comments like yours where you say that I didn't change the rules into your liking because of my "desire to avoid more work". I don't even know what to say to that.

Bottom line is that negativity and complaining killed this whole event, which now might never happen. But at least it isn't unbalanced now. Good job.

[Essence]

This does not of course mean that I don't listen to feedback. Of course I listen to feedback. For example you proposed that Quantum Towers should be considered cards from your element. It makes absolutely no sense and enables everyone to use rainbow decks, defeating the whole purpose of this event. And the reason you proposed this rule change was not that it makes more sense to you. The reason you proposed it was that you could build that specific deck of yours, and we both know it.

When I told you that it wasn't going to happen, you didn't take it too well, and started, what most people would call, "whining" about it. It's the same exact thing you did on the Masters event.

This will be my final comment on the matter.

I asked a question about how Quantum Pillars would be counted because I thought it would inspire a bit more creativity within the other restrictions.  I don't even know what "that specific deck" you're referring to, but I haven't used or posted a Water-centric deck that uses Quantum Pillars for anything...ever.  I had absolutely no personal stake in the answer to that question.

I started "whining" because I thought that this was intended to be a fair and balanced competition, and the attitude that you have taken toward the rules issues that people brought up was upsetting to me.  Period.   Once you clarified that this wasn't ever intended to be fair and balanced, I've been totally cool with it, and I've said so over and over again.


My most recent post (to which you have obviously taken offense, even though it wasn't intended to offend and said so right up front) was strictly intended to address an attitude on your part that isn't appropriate for a specific type of competition -- and MUCH more importantly, to address the difference, so that this would never happen again. 

So long as you don't ever start a serious competition with that inappropriate attitude in your heart, I'm totally cool with whatever you want to do.


If I've killed the entire War because you don't understand the difference, then I sincerely apologize to everyone. 

 Administrator Comment I edited your post. Read the forum rules again. And you are perfectly aware that those couple of messages removed, broke the forum rules.

[vrt]

Personally, I think the vagueness of the event announcements, combined with the "let's read too much into things"-attitude of the community at large, is the root of this problem. People built up their expectations of the 'War', and when it wasn't met, wanted things to change. And while I believe ScaredGirl holds a few fair points, so does the other side. Allow me to explain.

ScaredGirl, you mentioned that there's been a lot of whining, and that you only expected feedback after the tournament. Now, the problem with that, is that Elements isn't just luck-based. You can design a deck using the very basics; knowing what the cards are and do, and probabilities. Using this, I guess quite a few people decided 'Evil' was overpowered. This would be based not on this event, but on prior PVP knowledge. After all, there's been PVP events, as well as random games, for a while.

The other problem, though, is the overall competitive attitude that was created. I'm not holding ScaredGirl responsible for that, but the enthusiasm of some players. What was meant to be a fun event, turned into a crapfest of 'my side is better' quite quickly. Next to that, people got disappointed with what they ended up with. Imaginable, of course, but this is the problem with expectations: They don't always come out. There's two things you can do; try and change it, or accept it. The latter would've been the better option.


All in all, I think this event shouldn't be put on hold, but restarted altogether. make it clear that it's for fun, not for a huge prize-pot, and perhaps some of the e-peens could be left at home.

[Essence]

xdawnbydeath has elected to join the Acolytes of the Deep (via PM)!

[PuppyChow]

I'm not whining if you're implying that I am. I'm simply suggesting a quick fix that would make the competition much more fair and balanced, which is what people seem to want.

The next question is, if all the elements go to war, are these rivals going to fight on the same side? Um.. probably not because it just doesn't make any sense. PuppyChow your suggestion said that Earth and Air are on the same side. What makes them special? Why aren't Light and Darkness also on the same side? Difference between our classifications is that mine is based on Elements theme while yours is based on.. I don't know what.

Light and Darkness aren't on the same side because one is obviously good and one is obviously evil. Quoting myself...

Good (Canon):
Light
Life

Evil (Canon):
Dark
Poison
Fire

Those are really the only elements that are OBVIOUS candidates for those.

And rivals being on the same side DOES make sense:
Quoting myself for truth again...

Just because elements are rivals doesn't mean they're on opposing sides. I'm a University of Michigan fan, and we're big rivals with Ohio State, but when it comes to bowl games I still root for OSU since we're on the same side: the Big Ten conference.

Think of the "good side" as the Big Ten conference and the "evil" side as the Big Twelve. Now think of the rivalry games as those in-conference rivalries or the rare out of conference rivalry ala Universities of Mizzou/Illinois. If I was a Mizzou fan, I would never root for Illinois (even in the national championship) since we aren't even in the same conference (aka Illinois is on the good side but Mizzou is on the evil side). But if I'm a Michigan fan, I'll root for OSU since we're in the same conference (the good side).

As you can see, even rivals will fight together when against a common enemy. Mine is based on actually good and evil, while "neutral" elements (ie, Gravity/Entropy) were decided based on need.

Entropy is by definition randomness. If it's so random, why would it always choose to go against Gravity? It's random. It would flip a coin and go with that side, even if that necessitates playing WITH Gravity. You see, I'm using the actual "definition" of an element and not just the "rivals", since being a rival doesn't necessarily mean you're on different sides.

And I honestly don't see why Air and Earth are enemies. As I've already stated, Air NEEDS the Earth's gravity to hold it in place, and the Earth NEEDS the Air to create Life and then that Life needs gravity to keep itself on Earth.

So Life, Earth, Gravity, and Air should all be on the same side. Why would one turn against another?

[Glitch]

Because Scaredgirl said they would.

You want in her event, you follow her rules.  Life sucks and then you die.  Get over it.

[Scaredgirl]

I'm not whining if you're implying that I am.

I wasn't.

Entropy is by definition randomness. If it's so random, why would it always choose to go against Gravity? It's random. It would flip a coin and go with that side, even if that necessitates playing WITH Gravity. You see, I'm using the actual "definition" of an element and not just the "rivals", since being a rival doesn't necessarily mean you're on different sides.

I think it's really far fetched to think that just because entropy in about randomness, it can fight for whoever. Although it's about randomness, it still has a goal, and that goal is chaos. Entropy vs. Gravity is the classic battle between chaos and order. Those two simply cannot fight for the same cause because they are complete opposites of each other and don't have any common enemy.

And I honestly don't see why Air and Earth are enemies. As I've already stated, Air NEEDS the Earth's gravity to hold it in place, and the Earth NEEDS the Air to create Life and then that Life needs gravity to keep itself on Earth.
So Life, Earth, Gravity, and Air should all be on the same side. Why would one turn against another?

When dividing elements into teams, It's much more logical to use the rivalries that Zanz put into Elements, then to come up with our own explanations based on your own personal vision of Elements.

[Grimdrome]

I'm not whining if you're implying that I am.

I wasn't.

Entropy is by definition randomness. If it's so random, why would it always choose to go against Gravity? It's random. It would flip a coin and go with that side, even if that necessitates playing WITH Gravity. You see, I'm using the actual "definition" of an element and not just the "rivals", since being a rival doesn't necessarily mean you're on different sides.

I think it's really far fetched to think that just because entropy in about randomness, it can fight for whoever. Although it's about randomness, it still has a goal, and that goal is chaos. Entropy vs. Gravity is the classic battle between chaos and order. Those two simply cannot fight for the same cause because they are complete opposites of each other and don't have any common enemy.

And I honestly don't see why Air and Earth are enemies. As I've already stated, Air NEEDS the Earth's gravity to hold it in place, and the Earth NEEDS the Air to create Life and then that Life needs gravity to keep itself on Earth.
So Life, Earth, Gravity, and Air should all be on the same side. Why would one turn against another?

When dividing elements into teams, It's much more logical to use the rivalries that Zanz put into Elements, then to come up with our own explanations based on your own personal vision of Elements.

You can defend logic all you want but there will still be someone saying "but but but..." (I should make that my signature)

[Kamietsu]

If you have something to say about the current debate/discussion going on and you are not directly relating to this topic, e.g. asking to sign up for an element, please take all further posts to this thread: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,3620.0.html

[Terroking]

Gl1tch, for the 3rd time (), Savador1 is joining Earth.

[icybraker]

00MaYk00 has been accepted through PM into the Aetherian Army!