Music Competition: Song of the Elders

[Scaredgirl]

You misunderstand what I mean. Free music software (GarageBand, etc.) typically has "sampled" loops of real instruments that one can slap together for a quick result. This mashup may achieve a desired effect/result, but it is hardly original work. These programs also have what are called "virtual instruments" that can be played via MIDI notes to produce sounds. Quite often, these virtual instruments can make some very neat sounds, regardless of one's own musical background. That's the beauty of MIDI - it is played by software and not a person. The difference here is that most virtual instruments can be tweaked to produce customized sound profiles to match what the composer wants, while a sampled loop cannot. This makes composing music with MIDI much more personal and original than sequencing a few loops.

I'm not saying that people can't submit a loop sequence for this competition. I am saying, however, that such a sequence isn't very original (i.e. easy to replicate) and will most likely not win this competition. People should have fun with something like this, but, as with any other form of art, they should also be willing to accept some guidance and/or constructive criticism, not unlike the standard vrt has set with the realm of visual art on our forums.

I did understand what you meant, and I disagree with it. I don't think that members should be discouraged to post their submissions by saying to them that they need to be more original. The way I see it, everyone should be allowed to produce their music any way they want, whether it's combining ready-made loops, or recording something in a professional studio with Eminem.

This competition, and all other competitions, should be mainly about fun. This is why everyone should post their creations, no matter how bad they are. They might not win, but maybe they have fun producing their submission.

[jmizzle7]

You misunderstand what I mean. Free music software (GarageBand, etc.) typically has "sampled" loops of real instruments that one can slap together for a quick result. This mashup may achieve a desired effect/result, but it is hardly original work. These programs also have what are called "virtual instruments" that can be played via MIDI notes to produce sounds. Quite often, these virtual instruments can make some very neat sounds, regardless of one's own musical background. That's the beauty of MIDI - it is played by software and not a person. The difference here is that most virtual instruments can be tweaked to produce customized sound profiles to match what the composer wants, while a sampled loop cannot. This makes composing music with MIDI much more personal and original than sequencing a few loops.

I'm not saying that people can't submit a loop sequence for this competition. I am saying, however, that such a sequence isn't very original (i.e. easy to replicate) and will most likely not win this competition. People should have fun with something like this, but, as with any other form of art, they should also be willing to accept some guidance and/or constructive criticism, not unlike the standard vrt has set with the realm of visual art on our forums.

I did understand what you meant, and I disagree with it. I don't think that members should be discouraged to post their submissions by saying to them that they need to be more original. The way I see it, everyone should be allowed to produce their music any way they want, whether it's combining ready-made loops, or recording something in a professional studio with Eminem.

This competition, and all other competitions, should be mainly about fun. This is why everyone should post their creations, no matter how bad they are. They might not win, but maybe they have fun producing their submission.

But you do misunderstand my comments. I see no problem with posting something for fun. I was making my comments on the assumption that submissions are meant to be competitive (i.e. submitted with hopes of winning a music creation competition). The difference here is that I am treating this competition for exactly what its title implies: a competition to see who can come up with potential music for AI level 3. Pre-made loops, by definition, are copyrighted art that needs to be treated as such. If we are just having fun making music, then by all means, go ahead and do whatever suits you. But if we are actually trying to encourage a healthy competition based on creativity and originality of one's own work, then I suggest that people at least try to mix virtual instruments with loops to create something truly original.

I don't understand why you are hung up on "having fun." We are having fun! Just because I propose a challenge for potential competitors to push themselves to use something other than simple pre-made loops doesn't mean I want them to have no fun whatsoever. Vrt openly invites people to his art class and competitions, regardless of talent, but he doesn't dumb down that operation by allowing the use of some non-royalty free art just for the sake of trying to make people feel included. I say if you want to submit something, submit music according to your skill level. Nobody will berate you, and you can use loops as much as you want. Just try to put some input to the writing process. If it sounds bad, who cares? It's a competition on a forum for a free online game. I personally take music seriously because it is what I do for a living. Vrt is the same way with visual art. I see no problem here.

[Scaredgirl]

Pre-made loops, by definition, are copyrighted art that needs to be treated as such.

This is incorrect. Some pre-made loops can legally be used for any purpose you want. It all depends on where you get the loop. For example, I can make a loop, and give to the world 100% free for any kind on usage.

Lets revisit that first comment of yours..

but for the sake of this competition, I would hope that nobody would submit a bunch of loops mashed together, regardless of how good the result is.

I responded to that because it's against the whole philosophy these competitions we have here because it sounds like you are telling people what kind of music they should, and shouldn't, submit. You are basically trying to say that music made using loops is not "real" music, and people shouldn't submit music like that. I'm saying that this is a forum competition, not serious music production.

There's a big difference in encouraging people to write their own music, and telling them not to post music done using loops. That's all I'm saying.

As a conclusion, everyone is free to use any method of music production they want, and the poll will find the winner. Lets leave it at that and move on.

[jmizzle7]

Pre-made loops, by definition, are copyrighted art that needs to be treated as such.

This is incorrect. Some pre-made loops can legally be used for any purpose you want. It all depends on where you get the loop. For example, I can make a loop, and give to the world 100% free for any kind on usage.

It is and it isn't. Sure, you could technically do what you suggested, but we are talking about stuff that is bundled with free sequencers, not random loops on "royalty-free" websites (read the post to which I originally replied). You can't use only loops and call the work your own. These samples exist as a supplement to original writing, not as a replacement for it. But, as has been said, this is just for fun, so people can do whatever they want. This argument is pointless, as are most of our petty disputes, because we are (once again) coming from different viewpoints, and will thus never agree, because we are trying to prove two different things.

I'm done if you are.

[Bieber4Ever98]

It is and it isn't. Sure, you could technically do what you suggested, but we are talking about stuff that is bundled with free sequencers, not random loops on "royalty-free" websites (read the post to which I originally replied). You can't use only loops and call the work your own. These samples exist as a supplement to original writing, not as a replacement for it. But, as has been said, this is just for fun, so people can do whatever they want. This argument is pointless, as are most of our petty disputes, because we are (once again) coming from different viewpoints, and will thus never agree, because we are trying to prove two different things.

I don't think putting up a single loop or mashing two or three loops would produce good music. You would probably need to add beats, several instruments,piano melodies and special effects to make something for this game even if it is just a 30 sec loop. If we listen to the music played during the FG fights we can see that it is not just some supportive loops mashed together but is real music. Even by the method you are against, it is very difficult to make something good and it still would require a lot of creativity.

[vrt]

Music consisting entirely of pre-made loops can be fun to make, and decent to listen too, and in that aspect, fits into this competition perfectly. However, my stance on copyright is pretty known, so I won't dive into that one. I will, however, go into the fact that I think completely original music would be a much better fit for this contest, and as such, that's definitely where my vote will go to. I would encourage others to do the same, for the sake of rewarding creativity.

[Scaredgirl]

Pre-made loops, by definition, are copyrighted art that needs to be treated as such.

This is incorrect. Some pre-made loops can legally be used for any purpose you want. It all depends on where you get the loop. For example, I can make a loop, and give to the world 100% free for any kind on usage.

It is and it isn't. Sure, you could technically do what you suggested, but we are talking about stuff that is bundled with free sequencers, not random loops on "royalty-free" websites (read the post to which I originally replied). You can't use only loops and call the work your own. These samples exist as a supplement to original writing, not as a replacement for it. But, as has been said, this is just for fun, so people can do whatever they want. This argument is pointless, as are most of our petty disputes, because we are (once again) coming from different viewpoints, and will thus never agree, because we are trying to prove two different things.

I'm done if you are.

You are wrong again. Many audio production software let me combine different loops to produce a piece of music that I can use for commercial work, 100% royalty-free. Same goes with loops you can find on the internet. Usual limitation is that I cannot use one loop, and redistribute it as my own. But as soon as I combine two or more of them, it becomes my song, even though I did basically zero creative work. It's weird but that's how it goes.

You know the reason we will "never agree" on this topic is that you don't have your facts right, and it's very difficult for me to agree with something I know is false. The fundamental difference with our viewpoint is that you think loops don't produce real music and shouldn't be submitted in this competition, while I think that everyone should be free to post whatever they want, without any kind of judgement or being labeled as lame "loop users".

Music consisting entirely of pre-made loops can be fun to make, and decent to listen too, and in that aspect, fits into this competition perfectly. However, my stance on copyright is pretty known, so I won't dive into that one. I will, however, go into the fact that I think completely original music would be a much better fit for this contest, and as such, that's definitely where my vote will go to. I would encourage others to do the same, for the sake of rewarding creativity.

Yep, this is almost certainly what will happen. Unless a miracle happens, "real" music will easily triumph over stuff done using loops.

[jmizzle7]

You are wrong again. Many audio production software let me combine different loops to produce a piece of music that I can use for commercial work, 100% royalty-free. Same goes with loops you can find on the internet. Usual limitation is that I cannot use one loop, and redistribute it as my own. But as soon as I combine two or more of them, it becomes my song, even though I did basically zero creative work. It's weird but that's how it goes.

That's true. It is 100% legal to produce songs using loops only. I just personally think our community can do better. That is why I made the original comment.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. It's what I get for trying to prove a point when it is late and I have had 6 hours of sleep in two days.

[killsdazombies]

I made a song! postin here soon

[TimerClock14]

well, since this argument seems to have subsided, I'll go ahead and proceed with making my dubstep loop.

(grinding elders with wicked dubstep playing in the background FTW!!!)

[TheCrazyMango]

i dont think im gonna end up submitting anything

[rohlfo]

damn, this competition is right down my street! but most of my recording gear etc is stored away as I mainly just do live stuff now :s will have to see if I've time to come up with something before the deadline..