*Author

Offline BloodshadowTopic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4030
  • Country: ca
  • Reputation Power: 46
  • Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.
  • 吞天纳地,魔渡众生。天下万物,唯我至尊。
  • Awards: Ultimate Profile WinnerOpposites Attract
The abilities of some rare weapons need to be changed https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1021.msg9725#msg9725
« on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:16 pm »

Right now, the most used weapons in game are Eternity, Pulverizer, Owl's Eye, and Lobotomizer, because they have actually useful abilities. The other weapons are simply too weak.

And one thing I find utterly ridiculous is that Vampire Stiletto is just a weaker version of Druidic Staff. Stiletto heals 2 and damages 2, while Staff heal 5 and damages 2. This is completely pointless.

So, to make the other weapons more useful, I suggest we give them new abilities. And the weapons should all use Mono elements; currently all weapons are Mono except Pulverizer (Earth/Gravity) and Trident (Water/Earth).

Discord: Weapon (5 Entropy)
Deal 4 damage per turn.
Chaos Seed (3 Entropy): Inflict a random negative effect on the target creature.

Arsenic: Weapon (4 Death)
Deal 1 poison damage per turn.
Infection (1 Death): Inflict 1 poison to the target creature.

Titan: Weapon (5 Gravity)
Deal 5 damage per turn, Momentum.
Accelerate (3 Gravity): The target creature gains Momentum.

Pulverizer: Weapon (5 Earth)
Deal 5 damage per turn.
Shatter (3 Earth): Destroy the target permanent.

Druidic Staff: Weapon (5 Life)
Deal 3 damage per turn.
Summon (2 Life): Generate a Horned Frog.

Fahrenheit: Weapon (4 Fire)
Deal 5 damage per turn.
Burning (3 Fire): The target creature or this weapon gains 3 ATK.

Trident: Weapon (5 Water)
Deal 4 damage per turn.
Freeze (3 Water): Freeze the target creature for 3 turns.

Morning Star: Weapon (5 Light)
Deal 5 damage per turn, Immortal.
Holy Light (1 Light): Heal the target creature for up to 5 HP. If target creature is Dark or Death, damage is dealt instead.

Owl's Eye: Weapon (5 Air)
Deal 5 damage per turn.
Sniper (2 Air): Deal 3 damage to the target creature.

Eternity: Weapon (5 Time)
Deal 4 damage per turn.
Reverse Time (3 Time): Puts the target creature back into its owner's deck.

Vampire Stiletto: Weapon (5 Dark)
Deal 5 damage per turn, Vampire.
Sap (2 Dark): The target creature gains up to -3/-0; you gain up to 3 HP.

Lobotomizer: Weapon (4 Aether)
Deal 5 damage per turn.
Lobotomize (1 Aether): Remove all skills from the target creature.

I tried to not change any weapon names, but given Stiletto's new ability, I don't think the old name is adequate now...
And if it has the Steal ability, obviously it is superior to Shatter; so I gave Titan the Momentum ability, raised its damage, and reduced its ability cost to compensate.

And I tried to not invent any new abilities. But really, Heal and Holy Light as abilities shouldn't be that hard to program.

Comments and feedback?
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

Demongod

  • Guest
The abilities of some rare weapons need to be changed https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1021.msg9726#msg9726
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:16 pm »

Right now, the most used weapons in game are Eternity, Pulverizer, Owl's Eye, and Lobotomizer, because they have actually useful abilities. The other weapons are simply too weak.

And one thing I find utterly ridiculous is that Vampire Stiletto is just a weaker version of Druidic Staff. Stiletto heals 2 and damages 2, while Staff heal 5 and damages 2. This is completely pointless.

So, to make the other weapons more useful, I suggest we give them new abilities. And the weapons should all use Mono elements; currently all weapons are Mono except Pulverizer (Earth/Gravity) and Trident (Water/Earth).

Discord: Weapon (5 Entropy)
Deal 4 damage per turn.
Chaos (3 Entropy): Inflict a random negative effect on the target creature.

Arsenic: Weapon (4 Death)
Deal 4 damage per turn.
Poison (2 Death): Inflict 2 poison on your opponent.

Titan: Weapon (5 Gravity)
Deal 7 damage per turn, Momentum.
Shatter (2 Gravity): Destroy the target permanent.

Pulverizer: Weapon (5 Earth)
Deal 5 damage per turn.
Quake (3 Earth): Destroy 3 pillars in a pillar cluster.

Druidic Staff: Weapon (5 Life)
Deal 2 damage per turn.
Heal (3 Life): Heal yourself for up to 10 HP.

Fahrenheit: Weapon (4 Fire)
Deal 4 damage per turn.
Ablaze (3 Fire): Increase Fahrenheit's damage by 2.

Trident: Weapon (5 Water)
Deal 4 damage per turn.
Freeze (3 Water): Freeze the target creature for 3 turns.

Morning Star: Weapon (5 Light)
Deal 5 damage per turn, Immortal.
Holy Light (3 Light): Heal the target creature for up to 5 HP. If target creature is Dark or Death, damage is dealt instead.

Owl's Eye: Weapon (5 Air)
Deal 5 damage per turn.
Sniper (2 Air): Deal 3 damage to the target creature.

Eternity: Weapon (5 Time)
Deal 4 damage per turn.
Reverse Time (3 Time): Puts the target creature back into its owner's deck.

Vampire Stiletto: Weapon (5 Dark)
Deal 3 damage per turn.
Steal (3 Dark): Steals the target permanent.

Lobotomizer: Weapon (4 Aether)
Deal 5 damage per turn.
Lobotomize (1 Aether): Remove all skills from the target creature.

I tried to not change any weapon names, but given Stiletto's new ability, I don't think the old name is adequate now...
And if it has the Steal ability, obviously it is superior to Shatter; so I gave Titan the Momentum ability, raised its damage, and reduced its ability cost to compensate.

And I tried to not invent any new abilities. But really, Heal and Holy Light as abilities shouldn't be that hard to program.

Now, almost all the weapons are useful, maybe even overpowered. Discord is a powerful weapon that can inflict a variety of nasty effects; Arsenic now is twice as poisonous and unblockable by shield; Shatter is given to Titan, Tsunami is given to Pulverizer, and Trident gets Freeze; Druidic Staff can now heal you for 10 HP per turn; Fahrenheit can now increase its damage faster; Morning Star is still indestructible, but now it can constantly heal your creatures; and most powerful of all, Vampire Stiletto can now Steal permanents.

Comments and feedback?
First of all, from a rainbow perspective, I still wouldn't use any of the new weapons aside from perhaps the Discord.  They would

Discord: Interesting.  May be playable with this change.
Arsenic: Ever played against Scorpio?  Ever died horribly under a barrage of poison?  The reason Arsenic isn't used is that there are no decks that are dedicated poison decks because they can be hosed completely if someone felt like getting screwed proportionally for however many purifies they hold in their in all other matchups.  Arsenic as is is fine.
Titan: Whatever you're smoking, I want some of that, because that thing has now become broken beyond belief.  With this change, Graviton becomes nigh-impossible if he can drop that thing early.
Pulverizer: You just made this thing imba.  Either it's horrendously broken beyond all possible imagination, or it's useless (prot artifact=GG)
Druidic Staff: Much worse with your suggestion.  Seriously, there are lots of better things to do with 3 life mana, such as A) make another firefly which will probably hit for more than the 5 point differential, B) mutate using a fallen Druid, and probably some other things.  Make it generate a decent critter, and we'll talk.
Trident: Interesting.  Squid on a stick.  A lock on your opponent's 3 scariest critters so long as mana holds up.
Morningstar: If you're running anything other than light, I see no reason to run this.  If you literally put blessing on it, it'd be good.  Maybe too good, but compared to some of the other weapons...
Stiletto: If you have the quanta to use pulverizer in its current form, this is almost strictly worse.  Here's why: if you're running bone shield, you don't want to steal their wall, period.  You can only steal one of their weapons.  Yes, this does consistently steal their quanta, but simply, steal does not work as well as you'd hope it would.  I'd drop the cost to 2.
Fahrenheit: This does not make it better.  If you're running balls-to-the-wall fire aggro, then we're talking about you dropping all of your available mana on things like lava golems/destroyers and dragons.  By the time someone would have enough quanta left over to start pumping this thing in such a situation, they'd probably have 10 pillars/towers on the table anyway, and thereby increase its damage 2 a turn (if not more) passively.  In a "IMMA CHARGIN' MA LAZORZ" deck which saves mana to fire lance someone to the face six times over, this is a nerf so hard that it's silly.  Horrible change.


Offline BloodshadowTopic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4030
  • Country: ca
  • Reputation Power: 46
  • Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.
  • 吞天纳地,魔渡众生。天下万物,唯我至尊。
  • Awards: Ultimate Profile WinnerOpposites Attract
The abilities of some rare weapons need to be changed https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1021.msg9727#msg9727
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:16 pm »

Well, perhaps I shouldn't give every single weapon an activatable ability...

Maybe Titan is overpowered. But why Pulverizer? Trident had the same ability.

I've decided to remove the high damage and Momentum from Titan.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

Demongod

  • Guest
The abilities of some rare weapons need to be changed https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1021.msg9728#msg9728
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:16 pm »

And consider this: I was lenient on my criticism of your pulverizer change.  I just rethought about this...

With that change: Run mono-Earth.  Pack six pulverizers.  Stack your deck with almost anything else you want.  Can you say "broken"?

But in the interest of idea sharing, imma hijack your thread with my own ideas.

Pulverizer: stays as is.  Earth's other themes are all protective aside from destroying quanta.
Discord: I like your idea.
Arsenic: Should stay as is.
Poseidon: 2 water: Inflict 2 infection on target critter.
Titan: In addition to its current abilities: 1 gravity: cast gravity pull on target critter.
Stiletto: 2 darkness mana, inflicts 3 damage. New passive: for every 3 quanta you control total, it drains one random quanta from your opponent's mana pool and returns it to you as darkness.  (Essentially super devourer/pest)
Morning glory: Light: Target critter gets +3/+3.
Druid Staff: 6 green mana, whacks for 4.  2 life: Create a 5/5 elemental that generates light mana.
Fahrenheit: No changes needed.

Owl eye/eternity/lobotomizer all stay as are.


Offline BloodshadowTopic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4030
  • Country: ca
  • Reputation Power: 46
  • Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.
  • 吞天纳地,魔渡众生。天下万物,唯我至尊。
  • Awards: Ultimate Profile WinnerOpposites Attract
The abilities of some rare weapons need to be changed https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1021.msg9729#msg9729
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:16 pm »

I just feel that weapons should be Mono element. All weapons are, except Pulverizer and Trident.

Pulverizer is not that much of a big change. It wouldn't be too much different if you have 6 Tridents and 6 Animate Weapon.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

chriskang

  • Guest
The abilities of some rare weapons need to be changed https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1021.msg9730#msg9730
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:16 pm »

Am I the only one to think that boosting everything in the game just makes it more brutal and less strategic?
I'm not saying that your ideas are OP Blood, just that in general boosting cards doesn't increases the fun to play.
IMHO, if only 3/4 weapons are ever used, the best way to balance thate is to nerf those instead of boosting everything else.
Make Eternity target only enemy creatures; Pulv & Lobo cost 3 quantums to cast (and I'm not even sure that would be nerfed enough); EE deal only 1 or 2 damages; and you're done.
If some weapons are still unused after that, it'll be time to boost them then.
Just my 2 eurocents.

Scaredgirl

  • Guest
The abilities of some rare weapons need to be changed https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1021.msg9731#msg9731
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:16 pm »

Am I the only one to think that boosting everything in the game just makes it more brutal and less strategic?
I'm not saying that your ideas are OP Blood, just that in general boosting cards doesn't increases the fun to play.
IMHO, if only 3/4 weapons are ever used, the best way to balance thate is to nerf those instead of boosting everything else.
Make Eternity target only enemy creatures; Pulv & Lobo cost 3 quantums to cast (and I'm not even sure that would be nerfed enough); EE deal only 1 or 2 damages; and you're done.
If some weapons are still unused after that, it'll be time to boost them then.
Just my 2 eurocents.
This is what I would do first. Especially with Pulverizer.

bobcamel

  • Guest
The abilities of some rare weapons need to be changed https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1021.msg9732#msg9732
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:16 pm »

Discord: Fuuny, logical, and... this one I may accept.

ARSEnic: The current ARSEnic is meant to be cheap. And I don't want to constantly pay for the poison.

Titan: My. Now, this and Pulverizer (new), would make a great deck. Armored Otyughs nomming everything not nailed down, Momentum'd Dragons and Otyughs dealing heavy damage, the weapons, after being Animated, destroying all pillars and other permenents the opponent has... Nah. At least the Poseidon having Tidal Waves to destroy pillars made an unfitting element combo to do EQ on a stick.

Pulverizer: I accidentally it in the above part.

Drudic Staff: The new one... well, at least the 5 HP was FREE.

Fahrenheit: No. As you heard, having 10 Burning Pillars/Towers gives the same effect, but without spending quantums. And with more than 10 of those, your suggest is slower.

Trident: We have Squids for that. And it's unfitting the. The Trident controls the liquid water, for it comes from Greek, where ice is unknown about.

MORNIN' star: Can I cast this on myself? ...the ability is too pricy.

Owleye: You didn't change anything. Lol.

Eternity: As above.

Vampire thingy: No. Not Steal. Just give it 5-6 power and it'll be fine. And/or make it ignore shields. While keeping the vampirism.

Lob: 2 Aether was good price, this is too cheap.


Eternity targets only enemy: Then how am I meant to beat any God? Usually, if I manage to get enough grip on the situation to win, I also have to use my Eternity to prevent myself from deckout.

Pulv and Lob price increase: ...Pulv does already, Lob is pricier than the Illithid and it is enough.

Egleye attack decrease: Instead, let's make it NOT ATTACK if you used the shooting this turn.

Demongod

  • Guest
The abilities of some rare weapons need to be changed https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1021.msg9733#msg9733
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:16 pm »

Am I the only one to think that boosting everything in the game just makes it more brutal and less strategic?
I'm not saying that your ideas are OP Blood, just that in general boosting cards doesn't increases the fun to play.
IMHO, if only 3/4 weapons are ever used, the best way to balance thate is to nerf those instead of boosting everything else.
Make Eternity target only enemy creatures; Pulv & Lobo cost 3 quantums to cast (and I'm not even sure that would be nerfed enough); EE deal only 1 or 2 damages; and you're done.
If some weapons are still unused after that, it'll be time to boost them then.
Just my 2 eurocents.
Disagree completely.  EE's entire point is to be critter control.  If it did one damage to critters, it'd be literally pointless.  Two is getting there, but I still don't think it's that big a deal.  You can always steal/explosion it.  Think about it...why do people put things like steal and explosion in their deck?  To deal with these kinds of artifacts.

As for why trident isn't overpowered: because it requires water to run in a deck.  And between Earth and Water, you have no way whatsoever of dealing with creatures or permanents, drawing cards, or effectively walling off.

As for the suggested nerf to eternity, I'd agree completely, so long as there'd be a card in this game which you could use to keep from drawing cards (something like the Words of cycle from M:tG's onslaught.  For instance, Words of War.  2 generic/1 red mana: Any time you would draw a card, you may pay 1 generic mana.  If you do, deal two damage to target creature or player instead)

As for changing the casting cost on pulverizer, I also disagree.  Things like raising activated ability costs don't really do much except nerf rainbow decks, I hate to say it.  Think about it.  If someone is devotedly running earth/gravity, does it matter whether or not it costs them 1 or 3 gravity mana?

chriskang

  • Guest
The abilities of some rare weapons need to be changed https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1021.msg9734#msg9734
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:16 pm »

Disagree completely.  EE's entire point is to be critter control.  If it did one damage to critters, it'd be literally pointless.  Two is getting there, but I still don't think it's that big a deal.  You can always steal/explosion it.  Think about it...why do people put things like steal and explosion in their deck?  To deal with these kinds of artifacts.
3 damages are enough to one-shot Druids and to make Otys useless.
That's exactly what makes the card so popular. If damage goes down to 2, the card will remain competitive with the current Discord and Jade Staff, but won't be a "must have" as it is now.
Again, read my first sentence in the previous post: I'm NOT saying that the current weapons are overpowered. Just that the best way to have all weapons equally attractive is to tune down Eternity, Pulv, Lobo & EE a bit, rather than risking much more balance problems by boosting the others.

As for the suggested nerf to eternity, I'd agree completely, so long as there'd be a card in this game which you could use to keep from drawing cards (something like the Words of cycle from M:tG's onslaught.  For instance, Words of War.  2 generic/1 red mana: Any time you would draw a card, you may pay 1 generic mana.  If you do, deal two damage to target creature or player instead)
Sorry for my lack of understanding (I'm not a native English speaker) but what's the difference between what you describe and the current Hourglasses/Sundials?

Things like raising activated ability costs don't really do much except nerf rainbow decks, I hate to say it.
That's pretty much the point of this whole discussion. Those 4 weapons are overused because they work far too good with rainbow decks. I have no problem with people running Pulv in a mono or duo Gravity deck. But finding it in every rainbow deck is boring.
As I told before, I know that raising the cost to 3 isn't the ideal solution. But until we can figure out a better way to nerf it, it's still better than the current card.

bobcamel

  • Guest
The abilities of some rare weapons need to be changed https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1021.msg9735#msg9735
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:16 pm »

1. Maybe raisin the cost to 4? If possible, that is.

2. This Words of War makes you exchange the natural card draw for dealing 2 damage to a target for a price of any 1 quantum. This would keep you from decking out, as you'd deal damage instead of drawing.

3. I agree with the EE changes. But it's OE.

4. I'm not a native English speaker too, but I'm not using it as an excuse.

Demongod

  • Guest
The abilities of some rare weapons need to be changed https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1021.msg9736#msg9736
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:16 pm »

That's pretty much the point of this whole discussion. Those 4 weapons are overused because they work far too good with rainbow decks. I have no problem with people running Pulv in a mono or duo Gravity deck. But finding it in every rainbow deck is boring.
As I told before, I know that raising the cost to 3 isn't the ideal solution. But until we can figure out a better way to nerf it, it's still better than the current card.
And considering that rainbow only runs ONE pulverizer and ONE eternity usually with no protect artifact, if you're PvPing, you can just use destroy or steal on whatever "overpowered" weapon there is.  Don't base your ratings of "overpowered" based on the decks made to kill False Gods, because those decks horribly abuse the FG AI (for instance, wasting all explosions/steals on Bone Wall while a pulverizer or eagle eye destroys them).



 

anything
blarg: