*Author

Uppercut

  • Guest
Simulacra|Simulacra https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17384.msg221235#msg221235
« on: December 10, 2010, 08:23:46 pm »
NAME:
Simulacra
ELEMENT:
Aether
COST:
4 :aether
TYPE:
Spell
ATK|HP:
TEXT:
Put a copy of target creature's card into your hand, then put an additional copy into your hand for each card named Simulacra you've played this game.
NAME:
Simulacra
ELEMENT:
Aether
COST:
3 :aether
TYPE:
Spell
ATK|HP:
TEXT:
Put a copy of target creature's card into your hand, then put an additional copy into your hand for each card named Simulacra you've played this game.
ART:
IDEA:
Uppercut
NOTES:
SERIES:
First time submitting a card, I probably screwed up the tables somehow. As some of you may know I'm generally against scrapping old ideas for cards, so instead of suggesting that Fractal be completely redesigned I decided that this idea I had swimming in my head could possibly its own seperate card even though it fills the same role.  I liked the idea of a card that cared about how many copies of it had already been played and I might do a series of them if I'm not feeling lazy. Anyway, feedback is appreciated and if someone could hook me up with some art that would be pretty awesome too.

Boret

  • Guest
Re: Simulacra|Simulacra https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17384.msg221241#msg221241
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2010, 08:34:32 pm »
Nice idea, but there is something I don't understand.

1 Simulacra = 1 card + another one 1 (for you played 1 Sumulacra)
2 Simulacra = 1 card + another 2
3 Simulacra = 1card + another 3

Makes 9 of the same time at the cost of 27 (!!)  :aether , where Fractal comes with up to 7 copies for 10  :aether

The difference is, you could indeed make interesting strategies (play 1st one on a Dragon, 2nd one on an average creature, 3rd one on a low creature, 4th on a photon,..., for example), yet I think that the cost of this card is way too high to be effective. Maybe lower it to 7~6  :aether ?

Offline Ajit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1015
  • Reputation Power: 15
  • Ajit is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.Ajit is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.Ajit is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.
  • Awards: Winner of the Card Border Redesign
Re: Simulacra|Simulacra https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17384.msg221249#msg221249
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2010, 08:43:45 pm »
I don't know anything but what I've heard about coding, and I believe that the coding doesn't keep track of what cards are in the "discard" pile.  In other words, there would be no way for the game to know how many Simulacra's you've played.

Offline OldTrees

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 10297
  • Reputation Power: 114
  • OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
  • I was available for questions.
  • Awards: Brawl #2 Winner - Team FireTeam Card Design Winner
Re: Simulacra|Simulacra https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17384.msg221253#msg221253
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2010, 08:46:49 pm »
83% chance to have 1/6 in hand in the first 7 cards
80% chance to have 2/6 in hand in the first 12 cards
80% chance to have 3/6 in hand in the first 17 cards
83% chance to have 4/6 in hand in the first 22 cards
83% chance to have 5/6 in hand in the first 26 cards
80% chance to have 6/6 in hand in the first 29 cards

This card creates
1 card for 9|8 quanta that is 9|8 quanta per card
3 card for 18|16 quanta that is 6|5.33 quanta per card
6 card for 27|24 quanta that is 4.5|4 quanta per card
10 card for 36|32 quanta that is 3.6|3.2 quanta per card
15 card for 45|40 quanta that is 3|2.67 quanta per card
21 card for 54|48 quanta that is 2.6|2.3 quanta per card

So in a dedicated stall deck this can be used for 2.6|2.3 quanta per card to create 21 cards. This is its optimal usage and feels rather UP.
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
"Nothing exists that cannot be countered." -OldTrees on indirect counters
Ask the Idea Guru: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,32272.0.htm

Uppercut

  • Guest
Re: Simulacra|Simulacra https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17384.msg221259#msg221259
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2010, 08:55:28 pm »
If its true that the game can't process the amount of something played than this card idea might have just died before any real discussion happened.

OldTrees, thanks for the mathematical breakdown. The costing with a card that scales is hard, so my question is how would you value a card? How many copies should be played before it becomes super efficient and how you cost it?

Offline OldTrees

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 10297
  • Reputation Power: 114
  • OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
  • I was available for questions.
  • Awards: Brawl #2 Winner - Team FireTeam Card Design Winner
Re: Simulacra|Simulacra https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17384.msg221267#msg221267
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2010, 09:09:41 pm »
If its true that the game can't process the amount of something played than this card idea might have just died before any real discussion happened.

OldTrees, thanks for the mathematical breakdown. The costing with a card that scales is hard, so my question is how would you value a card? How many copies should be played before it becomes super efficient and how you cost it?
The game probably would be able to deal with this card. If not then it could always count the number of simulacra creates created and work based off that somehow.

Assuming the value progresses linearly (as it does in this case) I value a card based upon what the card does mid-game. This time period is dependent on the types of deck it would be used in, the combos involved and the weaknesses that deck type is subject too.

For this card it seems like a stall deck (reach all 30 cards) is ideal. However stall decks do not always succeed in stalling so somewhere between Rush deck victory and Stall deck victory would be the ideal balance point.
From this I would say that the 4th card should probably be the balance point. (However this would have to compete/replace fractal so make the 3rd card the balance point) From Mindgate I would theorize that each card gained should be balanced at 3 :aether after the replacement card.

The first three cards created a total of 6 cards (6x3 :aether=18 :aether) replacing 3 cards(-3x3 :aether=-9 :aether) for an ideal total cost of 18-9=9 :aether or 3 :aether per Simulacra.

A better balance point would be at the 3.5th card
Total cards created (N)(N+1)/2=7.875
Total cards consumed N=3.5
Delta cards 4.375
Ideal cost per delta card [3 :aether]
Ideal cost for 3.5 Simulacra [13.125 :aether]
Ideal cost per Simulacra [3.75 or 4|3 :aether]
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
"Nothing exists that cannot be countered." -OldTrees on indirect counters
Ask the Idea Guru: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,32272.0.htm

Uppercut

  • Guest
Re: Simulacra|Simulacra https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17384.msg221280#msg221280
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2010, 09:23:02 pm »
The game probably would be able to deal with this card. If not then it could always count the number of simulacra creates created and work based off that somehow.
This makes me curious as to what the actual coding behind the game looks like.

Quote
A better balance point would be at the 3.5th card
Total cards created (N)(N+1)/2=7.875
Total cards consumed N=3.5
Delta cards 4.375
Ideal cost per delta card [3 :aether]
Ideal cost for 3.5 Simulacra [13.125 :aether]
Ideal cost per Simulacra [3.75 or 4|3 :aether]
This makes PU/TU seem underwhelming as it never nets card advantage and costs twice as much. Interesting.

Offline Nepycros

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2571
  • Reputation Power: 32
  • Nepycros is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Nepycros is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Nepycros is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Nepycros is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Nepycros is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Nepycros is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.
  • My creativity was OP, so I had to nerf it.
Re: Simulacra|Simulacra https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17384.msg221281#msg221281
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2010, 09:23:40 pm »
Apologies for not reading. This card is peculiar. Why would I want to spend 54 Aether to get the maximum benefit of this card?
Perception is the source of misunderstanding.

Why, yes. I do have a Mindgate necklace. It's how I ninja everyone.

Offline OldTrees

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 10297
  • Reputation Power: 114
  • OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
  • I was available for questions.
  • Awards: Brawl #2 Winner - Team FireTeam Card Design Winner
Re: Simulacra|Simulacra https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17384.msg221282#msg221282
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2010, 09:24:07 pm »
TU|PU creates field advantage which is much more valuable.
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
"Nothing exists that cannot be countered." -OldTrees on indirect counters
Ask the Idea Guru: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,32272.0.htm

Uppercut

  • Guest
Re: Simulacra|Simulacra https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17384.msg221287#msg221287
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2010, 09:30:07 pm »
TU|PU creates field advantage which is much more valuable.
In most cases no. I'd rather have 3 more of a good effect in hand than 1 more on field.

Offline OldTrees

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 10297
  • Reputation Power: 114
  • OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
  • I was available for questions.
  • Awards: Brawl #2 Winner - Team FireTeam Card Design Winner
Re: Simulacra|Simulacra https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17384.msg221293#msg221293
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2010, 09:36:53 pm »
TU|PU creates field advantage which is much more valuable.
In most cases no. I'd rather have 3 more of a good effect in hand than 1 more on field.
Field advantage pays for the cost of playing the card Card advantage pays that cost separately.
Note also you compared CA 3 vs FA 1.
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
"Nothing exists that cannot be countered." -OldTrees on indirect counters
Ask the Idea Guru: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,32272.0.htm

Uppercut

  • Guest
Re: Simulacra|Simulacra https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17384.msg221297#msg221297
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2010, 09:43:11 pm »
Effect for effect its about that. PU is always + 1 FA, the average CA of Simulacra is 3.

Edit: This back and forth might look argumentive like I'm trying to keep the cost of my card high for no apparent reason. I just want to point out that its not. I just want to optimize balance.

 

blarg: