Natural Selection | Evolution

[moomoose]

even if they are "beneficial traits" accumulated, you were only talking about survivability as a means of fitness, of which there are very, very few abilities/skills that increase survivability.  most "beneficial traits" would be CC magnets.  also, if all of your creatures are affected by this, the relative fitness increase is a wash, aside from the very, very few % that gain +hp or immaterial status.

also, sidetracking here, but if evolution gives mutant status- all creatures should be have the passive of 'mutant' because they all evolved.

okay, so the problems with this card have been fleshed out by now.  the fix must include using quanta in some way or remove mutants/random abilities from the mechanic.
my suggestion- make a permanent or creature that has a single target ability to allow creatures to 'evolve' in a continuously additional way (statuses and passives predominantly) -costs /

[OldTrees]

even if they are "beneficial traits" accumulated, you were only talking about survivability as a means of fitness, of which there are very, very few abilities/skills that increase survivability.  most "beneficial traits" would be CC magnets.  also, if all of your creatures are affected by this, the relative fitness increase is a wash, aside from the very, very few % that gain +hp or immaterial status.

also, sidetracking here, but if evolution gives mutant status- all creatures should be have the passive of 'mutant' because they all evolved.

okay, so the problems with this card have been fleshed out by now.  the fix must include using quanta in some way or remove mutants/random abilities from the mechanic.
my suggestion- make a permanent or creature that has a single target ability to allow creatures to 'evolve' in a continuously additional way (statuses and passives predominantly) -costs /

Agreed, too many (1/3) of the mutant skills are not fitness related.
Mutant skills:
Hatch, Freeze, Burrow, Destroy, Steal, Dive, Heal, Momentum, Paradox, Lycanthropy, Scavenger, Infection, Gravity Pull, Devour, Mutation, Growth, Ablaze, Poison, Deja Vu, Immaterial, Endow, Guard, or Mitosis
Potentially fitness related:
Hatch, Burrow, Destroy, Steal, Heal, Momentum, Lycanthropy, Scavenger, Devour, Mutation, Growth, Deja Vu, Immaterial, Endow, or Mitosis

Some creatures might be artificially created (Golems?). Additionally I was assuming that an "Evolution" card would have relatively rapid evolution rather than the time it took for Scarbs and Dragonflys to diverge. The mutant passive ability seems to represent a very abnormally large amount of mutagens in the subject.

I like your take with statuses and passives. I would also suggest stat adjustments like +1|+4 and +2|+2.

[Xenocidius]

Ugh. I'm gone for under 24 hours and you leave me pages of debate to read through.

It's been picked up on already, but I'd like to remind everyone that evolution is caused by mutation, hence the main idea behind the card. I'm very reluctant to use quanta in this card, because I feel it is unneeded.

To make it more thematic, perhaps each evolving creature could generate a death effect each turn? However, I do not wish to upset the balance of the card.

Evolution as a permanent or creature makes absolutely no sense.

[OldTrees]

Evolution as a permanent or creature makes absolutely no sense.

Increased mutation rate (from the normal evolutionary pace) has to be caused by something. A change in the environment could be likened to flooding and thus a permanent.

[Contrary]

Are you trying to tell me Mummies evolved from Cockatrices? Madness. All creatures were created by one supreme being...

[oblivion1212]

Evolution as a permanent or creature makes absolutely no sense.

Increased mutation rate (from the normal evolutionary pace) has to be caused by something. A change in the environment could be likened to flooding and thus a permanent.

makes sense..

Are you trying to tell me Mummies evolved from Cockatrices? Madness. All creatures were created by one supreme being...

belief/religion/faith is pretty subjective..
just realized that this might also work as a permanent.. not saying that it should, just saying it's possible

[moomoose]

"Evolution as a permanent or creature makes absolutely no sense."

theres a lot going on here that doesnt compute.  and i didnt say name the card evolution, but you could have a permanent/creature that has an ability with that effect.

"It's been picked up on already, but I'd like to remind everyone that evolution is caused by mutation, hence the main idea behind the card.

evolution caused by mutation, mutation is explicitly entropy, you basically just showed the direct link of this mechanic with .

"To make it more thematic, perhaps each evolving creature could generate a death effect each turn? However, I do not wish to upset the balance of the card."

all of your creatures popping on-death triggers is such a terrible idea, especially as a mono-life card as it stands, i dont even want to imagine what / decks could be made up with it.

my last post in this thread-
concept- okay idea, ive made similar cards referencing science/biology/evolution and support more cards along the same vein
execution- including mass, frequent, repeated mutations of your creatures without any inclusion of in the system is baffling to me- how is it any more sane than a card called "eternal life" giving immaterial to all of your creatures without inclusion of ?  immortal creatures are as tied in to as mutants are to , and you would try to rip that away from ? terrible, terrible idea.  i cannot stress that enough.  would zanz let that slide? i sure as hell hope not.
balance-limiting the mutating to skills/passives/statuses on one hand is a means to reduce the power of mutation.  however, in a mono-life deck, all creatures gaining skills that can only cost (because we are talking a mono-life situation) is not okay.  one of the balancing mechanisms that mutation has in game is that the element of the creature changes (usually), and so too does their skill's elemental cost as a result.  being able to fuel devour, dive, freeze, etc etc, whatever comes up, all guaranteed to be quanta cost is *not* balanced, at all, in my opinion.

*edit- i wanted this to be my last post, i really did.  how the heck he still didnt get it is beyond me.

[Pineapple]

There are many times where zanz has shown that theme ranks higher than elemental "obligation."
See Schrodinger's Cat, Basilisk Blood or Iridium Warden vs. Procrastination, Immolation vs. Nova or Quantum Pillar.

[Scaredgirl]

It's been picked up on already, but I'd like to remind everyone that evolution is caused by mutation

You seem to suggest that since mutation is part of evolution, we can assume that mutation = evolution. Wrong. Mutation is only the first step of the process. Without other parts, it's just mutation, not evolution. You and OldTrees are looking it as evolution because players are doing a kind of "natural selection", but like I said, if the card is called "Evolution", it should do exactly that, not just be the first step of the process.

The logic behind you making this a card seems to be Fallen Elf.



This is of course debatable, but I think the mutation part comes from the fact that Fallen Elf is creature, and cost acts only as a "fuel" in the process.

Your card idea does mass mutation. Here is a card that does a single mutation, and a card that does something similar to mass mutation:



There is clearly a HUGE correlation between and randomness/mutation, so why should Natural Selection | Evolution (mass mutation mechanics) be from ? Makes no sense.

Evolution as a permanent or creature makes absolutely no sense.

As a permanent, I agree. But as a creature, it does make sense when you do it like this:



Which brings me to another point. If we already have an ability "Evolve", why would we want a card called "Evolution" that does something completely different?

[OldTrees]

It's been picked up on already, but I'd like to remind everyone that evolution is caused by mutation

You seem to suggest that since mutation is part of evolution, we can assume that mutation = evolution. Wrong. Mutation is only the first step of the process. Without other parts, it's just mutation, not evolution.

What I learned in my college Evolution class as part of my Genetic major:
There are 4 evolutionary forces that each can cause evolution individually. Mutation, Gene Flow, Natural Selection and Genetic Drift. Only 1 of the 4 forces is required for evolution to occur. Natural Selection requires existing genetic variance to cause evolution. Gene Flow requires two populations. Genetic Drift requires sampling errors. Mutation requires a positive mutation rate.
If the evolutionary force of Natural Selection was to be represented then the mechanic would need to create the variance and then have selection. It would not be able to just have the second step without the first.

[Xenocidius]

Evolution as a permanent or creature makes absolutely no sense.

As a permanent, I agree. But as a creature, it does make sense when you do it like this:



Which brings me to another point. If we already have an ability "Evolve", why would we want a card called "Evolution" that does something completely different?

If we already have an ability "Devour", why would we want an ability called "Devourer" that does something completely different?

The idea that randomness should be exclusive to Entropy is wrong (see Dusk Mantle and Fog Shield).

You suggest that it should entail all parts of Evolution, and yet you are also the one who argued that there is no need for Elements to be that scientifically accurate. How would you make it encompass the other parts of real evolution as well?

[moomoose]

ok, jesus, how a card curator could not understand this is repugnant-  it's not about 'randomness', it's about taking a mechanic that is firmly established as belonging to one element and giving a supped up version of that mechanic to another element.  see the mass immaterial creature example above, or if you were to make a "mass steal" card where it takes many of the opponents permanents, or give a "from the ground up" card where it removes all creatures back onto the top of the decks. do the themes match up? well enough.  do the mechanics belong to other elements? doy. should these cards be made? hell no.