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Offline RootRanger

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Re: Natural Disaster | Nature's Wrath https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34306.msg433028#msg433028
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2011, 11:34:29 pm »
A card that actually improves the game is much better than an "original" card that makes the game even more imbalanced. And I've found that most of the card ideas are the latter. If you can somehow make an original card that actually significantly improves the game, good for you, but those ideas are few and far between.

Sadly it seems hardly anyone can get their priorities straight, and most people would rather post a random idea that jumps into their head instead of a thought out idea that improves the game.

Would it be more "original" to post some unique mechanic that works in any deck, making rainbows even more OP while leaving underpowered Elements in the dust? Yes. Would that card get more votes? Yes. For most people, card design is just a game of manipulating uneducated voters with never before seen mechanics, but some people seem to care about improving the game.

Good job Legit, for being one of the rare card designers that seem to know what they are doing.
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Re: Natural Disaster | Nature's Wrath https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34306.msg433031#msg433031
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2011, 11:37:46 pm »
This card is actually more versatile than almost every other card in the game. The restrictions are explicitly stated; however it can be used in more decks because it is not bound by a single element. For example, the card Sky Blitz can only be used in any decks that use Air (mono Air, any element/Air duo, etc). This card can be used in any deck that uses Air, Life, OR Water mark, (mono Air/life/water, and any duo that uses any of the three element assuming it has the mark). Of course the mark is a somewhat limiting factor but the amount of decks this card will fit in outnumbers the deck any other single-element card can fit into.
If we use that Sky Blitz as an example, I can use it in any deck with any mark, as long as I can pay that 9 :air. This card however forces you to use one of the 3 marks, which seriously limits my options, seeing how important a mark is in a deck. I guess it's a matter of an opinion, but I don't think a card should ever be limited to 3 marks only.

I also agree that this it not unique enough. There are many ways to destroy permanents. I'll throw in one random idea.

What if this card weakens all the opponents permanents? And when a permanent is weakened, it can be destroyed by any attacking creature. So basically permanents would turn into pieces of Bonewall. They would still function as usual until they are attacked. It would fit the theme and make this card unique.

Just an idea. :)

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Natural Disaster | Nature's Wrath https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34306.msg433033#msg433033
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2011, 11:40:06 pm »
Would it be more "original" to post some unique mechanic that works in any deck, making rainbows even more OP while leaving underpowered Elements in the dust? Yes. Would that card get more votes? Yes. For most people, card design is just a game of manipulating uneducated voters with never before seen mechanics, but some people seem to care about improving the game.
Um. Those are the same card in this case. Natural Disater's first effect can be used in more decks than Deflagration by sacrificing the Mark. Unlike Deflagration, which is a Fire card bound to a single element, Natural Disaster is an Other card that can be used by any deck if the mark is sacrificed. Other cards naturally favor Rainbow decks over Elemental decks.

but the point is that I’m increasingly annoyed of the game imbalance, and nothing is being done. There comes a time when fixing the game is more important than creating a card following the strict and binding rules of the community.
Lots has been done.
We have discussed and investigated the problems.
We have identified where our preconceptions are distracting. (PC is not needed. Responses to permanents are needed.)
We have made many card suggestions many of which (like Vines) are high in the poll system.


I agree that the rules that govern what makes a card valuable to EtG do outrank the rules imposed by the community. However you might want to reread the comments. Most of them were talking about characteristics that impact the value the card would add to the game if added.

Sidenote: It may have got lost in translation, but I meant restrictive for an other card (like a shard) when I was commenting on it in the CardDesign chat.
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Offline RootRanger

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Re: Natural Disaster | Nature's Wrath https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34306.msg433047#msg433047
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2011, 11:56:05 pm »
Um. Those are the same card in this case. Natural Disater's first effect can be used in more decks than Deflagration by sacrificing the Mark. Unlike Deflagration, which is a Fire card bound to a single element, Natural Disaster is an Other card that can be used by any deck if the mark is sacrificed. Other cards naturally favor Rainbow decks over Elemental decks.
Deflag can be used in any Rainbow, any deck with Fire, or any deck that sacrifices the mark for a Fire mark.
This card can be used in an air/life/water-mark deck (very rare) or any deck that sacrifices the mark.

Deflag can be used in far more decks than Natural Disaster. Rainbows and Fire decks are very common mostly for reasons other than deflag, while the use of Air, Life, and Water cards are rare. I found it ironic that you said Other cards naturally favor rainbow decks when this card is a huge exception. Deflag is much easier to use in a rainbow.
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Re: Natural Disaster | Nature's Wrath https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34306.msg433055#msg433055
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2011, 12:02:37 am »
Um. Those are the same card in this case. Natural Disater's first effect can be used in more decks than Deflagration by sacrificing the Mark. Unlike Deflagration, which is a Fire card bound to a single element, Natural Disaster is an Other card that can be used by any deck if the mark is sacrificed. Other cards naturally favor Rainbow decks over Elemental decks.
Deflag can be used in any Rainbow, any deck with Fire, or any deck that sacrifices the mark for a Fire mark.
This card can be used in an air/life/water-mark deck (very rare) or any deck that sacrifices the mark.

Deflag can be used in far more decks than Natural Disaster. Rainbows and Fire decks are very common mostly for reasons other than deflag, while the use of Air, Life, and Water cards are rare. I found it ironic that you said Other cards naturally favor rainbow decks when this card is a huge exception. Deflag is much easier to use in a rainbow.
There are more variants of decks that partially sacrifice the mark for 1 of 3 elements than there are for partially sacrificing it for 1 specific element.
Usually 4 :rainbow is cheaper than 3 :fire for Rainbow decks.
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Re: Natural Disaster | Nature's Wrath https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34306.msg433059#msg433059
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2011, 12:05:31 am »
I like the uses of the card
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Offline LegitTopic starter

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Re: Natural Disaster | Nature's Wrath https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34306.msg433062#msg433062
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2011, 12:11:34 am »
If we use that Sky Blitz as an example, I can use it in any deck with any mark, as long as I can pay that 9 :air. This card however forces you to use one of the 3 marks, which seriously limits my options, seeing how important a mark is in a deck. I guess it's a matter of an opinion, but I don't think a card should ever be limited to 3 marks only.

I also agree that this it not unique enough. There are many ways to destroy permanents. I'll throw in one random idea.

What if this card weakens all the opponents permanents? And when a permanent is weakened, it can be destroyed by any attacking creature. So basically permanents would turn into pieces of Bonewall. They would still function as usual until they are attacked. It would fit the theme and make this card unique.

Just an idea. :)
I understand your point, I guess I see this a different way. This card belongs to three elements, so for example, it can be used in a life/gravity duo, a water/time duo, and an air/aether duo. Sky Blitz can only be used in the air/aether duo. Natural Disaster will only fit in the three aforementioned decks if the mark is life, water, or air. Because of this it will only work in 3 out of the 6 possible combinations. (Life pends and gravity mark is one combination, gravity pends and life mark is another). This is your definition of limited, in which it will only work in 50% of the decks. Sky Blitz will fit into 2/2 decks, which is 100%. Therefore Natural Disaster's mark restriction limits decks while Sky Blitz does not.

My definition of limited: Of the six deck combinations mentioned above, Natural Disaster fits in 3 while Sky blitz fits into 2. Natural Disaster is therefore more versatile because it fits into more decks.

Like, you said, it's opinion based.

Also, your idea is pretty cool, I'm not going to use it because I like to think of my own cards (no offense, I do think it's a nice, unique ability). Back to the drawing board.


but the point is that I’m increasingly annoyed of the game imbalance, and nothing is being done. There comes a time when fixing the game is more important than creating a card following the strict and binding rules of the community.
Lots has been done.
We have discussed and investigated the problems.
We have identified where our preconceptions are distracting. (PC is not needed. Responses to permanents are needed.)
We have made many card suggestions many of which (like Vines) are high in the poll system.


I agree that the rules that govern what makes a card valuable to EtG do outrank the rules imposed by the community. However you might want to reread the comments. Most of them were talking about characteristics that impact the value the card would add to the game if added.

Sidenote: It may have got lost in translation, but I meant restrictive for an other card (like a shard) when I was commenting on it in the CardDesign chat.

I do agree that things are being done on the forums (which is good); however, I meant nothing is being done in the actual game. (I don't blame you for misinterpreting this, my fault for not being clear) For example, the deck Scrambled Shriekers (Novas, Discords, Graboids, Earthquakes) was first introduced in War 1. From then on more people began to use decks featuring those four cards. Now it's more than a year later, War 4, and the same deck is STILL effective. http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,34088.0.html. Because it's one of the most popular decks in BL, war, and pvp events (see TPvP), something should be done to reduce it's effectiveness so other decks will be used more, and players will not have to create a specific counter deck just to attempt to beat one deck.




Offline RootRanger

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Re: Natural Disaster | Nature's Wrath https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34306.msg433097#msg433097
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2011, 12:44:25 am »
There are more variants of decks that partially sacrifice the mark for 1 of 3 elements than there are for partially sacrificing it for 1 specific element.
I'm not sure why this is relevant because it's usually a better option to sacrifice the mark for Deflag.
A mono that switches to a Fire mark and has 3 Deflags added to it has less leftover quanta than a mono that switches to an Air/Life/Water mark and has 3 Natural Disasters added to it. It's common logic that decks with less leftover quanta perform better. The only reason Natural Disaster would be added to a mono is if Air/Life/Water cards are added as well, but Air/Life/Water are three of the weakest Elements.

Usually 4 :rainbow is cheaper than 3 :fire for Rainbow decks.
Natural Disaster requires the mark to be downgraded. As someone that actually competitively plays rainbows, I know that using an Air/Life/Water mark is a major sacrifice. With Deflag, you can use any mark. Rainbows will almost always prefer Deflag because a preferred mark (Earth, Entropy mostly; Death, Time, and Light to a lesser extent) can still be used.
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Re: Natural Disaster | Nature's Wrath https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34306.msg433101#msg433101
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2011, 12:50:50 am »
Good points RootRanger. I am convinced.
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Re: Natural Disaster | Nature's Wrath https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34306.msg433138#msg433138
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2011, 02:01:23 am »
I think the discrepancy of opinions lies in the fact that this card idea was presented as more of a "balance idea" as opposed to a "card idea".

Your goal, it appears, is to "fix" or at least aid elements that are known to struggle more than others in certain areas. It's a good effort, but I think we all know which elements have fluid winning mechanisms and which elements are more stunted, and will for a while.

Despite what goes on, all Card Creators can do is act on ingenuity, creativity and balance in order to, card by card, allow themes within elements to grow and niches to develop.

Zanzarino is a smart guy, rest assured he does not want one element to be stronger than any other. He would like people to find how to use each element in skilled ways to overcome the opponent, and at this point in time, we're not quite there.

Know that with each card introduced, Zanzarino will attempt to balance elements, bring forth themes, and make this game a whole lot better.

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Re: Natural Disaster | Nature's Wrath https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34306.msg433348#msg433348
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2011, 03:04:28 pm »
"This card belongs to three elements"

...so it screams "psuedoelement", not "air".

there are better ways to go about giving :life :air and :water some measure of PC, this card is just saying "give :water, :air or :life PC" in a rather grab-bag and/or one size fits all, way.  i do not like the idea of cards simply being "give these following elements this ability", it just feels like filler in place of where there could be cards of actual substance-  thunderbird was a good example of an :air PC suggestion, warthog a good example of a :life PC suggestion.  i do not know of a good :water pc suggestion off the top of my head.  maybe ill reuse my old "haunt" card (basically a sundial for permanents) and adapt it to a :water theme. 

the point is if you want some elements to be expanded in a certain direction, think of something for each of them that will be thematic and interesting, rather than add them all together into one card, randomly 'assign' it an element and have it cost 'other' quanta.  that's a real beef with this card.  i do not have a huge problem with taking a card that exists for another element and slapping another element on it, then modifying it a bit to make it fit that element and be different in some way (it if you want to take explosion and modify it to fit :water, go for it), but a generalized "buff these following elements" seems out of place.  this seems more suited for subforums "buff this element" and/or "nerf this element", rather than a card suggestion in and of itself.  is this really a card suggestion? or just a "hey zanz, i think these following elements have a hole, btw, plz give them pc, thx", as hy suggested?
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Re: Natural Disaster | Nature's Wrath https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34306.msg433355#msg433355
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2011, 03:26:20 pm »
why only those 3 elements  :earth and  :light are quiet nature like too
it would be a good card for life
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