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bobcamel

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Multi-mark cards (multicolor) the can produce combos https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1129.msg10853#msg10853
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:20 pm »

Quote
Posting updated, without the name calling.
Quote
any rational debate with ScaredDude effective.
Lol hypocritter

Offline jmizzle7

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Multi-mark cards (multicolor) the can produce combos https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1129.msg10854#msg10854
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:20 pm »
Whatever that was... ^^

Anyway, I totally agree with SG that Elements is not MtG. Sure, they are similar, because every CCG that came out after MtG took some mechanic from it. While similar, Elements is quite different in very important ways from MtG.

    There are no instants, and there is no stack or playing spells during another player's turn. This difference reflects the simplicity of Elements gameplay.Creatures attack the turn they come into play. Both MtG and Elements implement summoning sickness, where creatures and permanents must wait a turn before they can use their abilities. MtG has the added condition that creatures must wait a turn to attack as well. Elements doesn't have this issue.Creatures do not block! This is one of the two biggest differences that former MtG players should note about Elements. A former MtG player myself, it took me a little bit to get used to the straightforwardness of combat. Immaterial status was taken from an MtG card mechanic called Shroud that states "This permanent (or creature) can't be the target of spells or abilities." The big difference is that in MtG, creatures with Shroud could still die in combat. This isn't the case in Elements. Does this make immortal creatures and permanents overpowered? Not really. There are plenty of decks that can win without a care of what goes on at the opponent's end.You can play as many pillars/towers you want during your turn! This is the other huge difference between MtG and Elements. It took me maybe five minutes of play before I realized that the cost of a dragon wasn't nearly as expensive as it seemed in terms of MtG's mana. That's because in order to get 10 mana in MtG, you had to wait until turn 10 when you finally had your 10th land out, or you had to find some kind of mana acceleration, a very important kind of card advantage in MtG. There really is no quanta acceleration in Elements other than upgraded towers and Nova/Supernova. You could argue that the quantum critters (Eater, Gemfinder, etc.) are acceleration, but it takes quanta to cast them, which nets you zero quanta on the turn they come out. Pests take two turns to replace their cost. Overall, though, Elements is much faster in terms of quanta production than MtG's mana production. Quantum Towers are balanced by the fact that they produce random quanta, thus making them slower than specialized towers at producing specific kinds of quanta.[/list]
    Back to the original discussion, I think that multi-element cards would be fun. If my idea for dual pillars/towers ever takes flight (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,601.msg5860#msg5860 (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,601.msg5860#msg5860)), it would make multi-element cards quite feasible. The problem, of course, is finding a cost that would lend itself to this particular element duo instead of finding its way into a rainbow deck. Quantum Towers could cast multi-element cards pretty easily, especially if you include Supernova. Also, if Zanzarino ever introduces more 'other' cards, Quantum towers would be abusable even more. Just a thought.

    Evil Hamster

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    Multi-mark cards (multicolor) the can produce combos https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1129.msg10855#msg10855
    « Reply #26 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:20 pm »

    While I agree with you, rawr, please don't insult ScaredGirl. Attack her points if you want, but no need to name call.
    Posting updated, without the name calling.  I find it a bit hard to resist name calling with a guy who is so familiar with it though.

    Additionally, I find it hard to find any rational debate with ScaredDude effective.  As a matter of fact, I would challenge someone to find a thread in which he isn't just flinging hate and discontent.  The signal to noise ratio for him is very very low on threads which he didn't start.  And even on those he started, the signal to noise drops off sharply after the first post.
    I fixed your original post.

    And I don't see how a person with only 4 posts can claim it's difficult to debate anything.

    rawr

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    Multi-mark cards (multicolor) the can produce combos https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1129.msg10856#msg10856
    « Reply #27 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:20 pm »

    Additionally, I find it hard to find any rational debate with ScaredDude effective.  As a matter of fact, I would challenge someone to find a thread in which he isn't just flinging hate and discontent.  The signal to noise ratio for him is very very low on threads which he didn't start.  And even on those he started, the signal to noise drops off sharply after the first post.
    I fixed your original post.

    And I don't see how a person with only 4 posts can claim it's difficult to debate anything.
    lol at your fix...  Though I understand your motivation.

    More properly, that sentence should have read, "I find it hard to find any rational debate with Scared that has been effective".

    I don't know how my post count is relevant, but I assure you my reading skills are fine, and I have watched Scared as he constantly shuts down newbies and flames anyone who disagrees with him.

    Pilchard123

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    Multi-mark cards (multicolor) the can produce combos https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1129.msg10978#msg10978
    « Reply #28 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:21 pm »

    20 quantum card questionable?! How about "never in a million years"?
    <cough>Miracle</cough>

    Scaredgirl

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    Multi-mark cards (multicolor) the can produce combos https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1129.msg10979#msg10979
    « Reply #29 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:21 pm »

    20 quantum card questionable?! How about "never in a million years"?
    <cough>Miracle</cough>
    Miracle costs 12, not 20. That's a big difference. If Miracle cost 20 I would never take it in any rainbow deck.

    *cough*

    rawr

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    Multi-mark cards (multicolor) the can produce combos https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1129.msg10980#msg10980
    « Reply #30 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:21 pm »

    20 quantum card questionable?! How about "never in a million years"?
    <cough>Miracle</cough>
    Miracle costs 12, not 20. That's a big difference. If Miracle cost 20 I would never take it in any rainbow deck.

    *cough*
    Bravo pilchard.

    Miracle costs 15, unupped, Scared.  Fairly close to 20, as the 20 was probably an exaggeration.  Also shows that "never in a million years" doesn't really apply.

    Additionally, miracle removes all of your light quanta, often making it much more expensive than 20 to play.  I have seen several viable decks consisting of multiple miracles.

    Scaredgirl

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    Multi-mark cards (multicolor) the can produce combos https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1129.msg10981#msg10981
    « Reply #31 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:21 pm »

    20 quantum card questionable?! How about "never in a million years"?
    <cough>Miracle</cough>
    Miracle costs 12, not 20. That's a big difference. If Miracle cost 20 I would never take it in any rainbow deck.

    *cough*
    Bravo pilchard.

    Miracle costs 15, unupped, Scared.  Fairly close to 20, as the 20 was probably an exaggeration.  Also shows that "never in a million years" doesn't really apply.

    Additionally, miracle removes all of your light quanta, often making it much more expensive than 20 to play.  I have seen several viable decks consisting of multiple miracles.
    Who cares what the unupped version costs? I use the upgraded version. And 12 is not even close to 20 when we talk about rainbow decks.

    Weak trolling, Warr.

    rawr

    • Guest
    Multi-mark cards (multicolor) the can produce combos https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1129.msg10982#msg10982
    « Reply #32 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:21 pm »

    Who cares what the unupped version costs?
    95% of the people that play, specifically the newbies.

    I use the upgraded version.
    Hoorah for you.  People who have not been farming for huge amounts of time have probably found no reason to upgrade a miracle.  Majority of cases you are going to have more than 15 light quanta when you cast it anyway.  Not everyone has access to unlimited cards and resources.

    And 12 is not even close to 20 when we talk about rainbow decks.
    Assuming that the 20 being talked about was in regard to the upped version of a card, which it probably wasn't.  You are probably going to find a card with a cost of 20 to be fairly functionally similar to a miracle.

    Weak trolling, Warr.
    Again, this is unnecessary, unsubstantiated, and rude.  Not to mention against forum rules.

    Pilchard123

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    Multi-mark cards (multicolor) the can produce combos https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1129.msg10983#msg10983
    « Reply #33 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:21 pm »

    Oh. My mistake, sorry. What about unupped, though?

    rawr

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    Multi-mark cards (multicolor) the can produce combos https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1129.msg10984#msg10984
    « Reply #34 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:21 pm »

    Unupped costs 15 light, plus all the remaining light you have.

    chriskang

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    Multi-mark cards (multicolor) the can produce combos https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1129.msg10985#msg10985
    « Reply #35 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:21 pm »

    Have you ever seen this situation where the 2 players bring an Oty out early in the game and then nothing for 2/3 turns?
    Both Otys, gazing into each other's eyes, just like in those old Italian westerns :)
    In this case, I usually play the first non-vital creature that I draw (like a druid or a maxwell demon) and devour it myself. Most of the time, that's the key moment of the game cause my 1/6 Oty is now able to eat its 0/5 counterpart and nearly everything that comes next.

    My point is: Otyugh is an opening creature. Play it, make it grow quickly and it'll give you an immediate advantage on the battlefield.
    Of course you can tell me that there are 10 million ways to counter a simple 1/6 oty and you would be right but those mechanics can be used against your opponent as well so they're not really meaningful "counters". Sometimes, there are even ways to counter the counters:
    * your opponent freezes your Oty to prevent his from being devoured? Freeze his too to prevent him from growing.
    * he ROFs you? ROF him too

    Now I took Oty as an example, but I could use the same arguments with most weapons, with some other creatures like Anubis and with some spells like Protect Artifact. You must agree with me to say that there's no point, really, in protecting a stack of pillars after turn 20.
    Some cards are designed to be played early in the game. That's a fact. And if both you and your opponent have the same key card, the one that plays it first has the best chances to take an advantage over the other.
    I know that theoretically, every correctly built deck CAN play any card on turn 2, but as SG pointed out before this game is all about statistics, not potential. I don't care if 1 time out of 100 I can play my Oty on turn 2. What really counts is this: "Am I able to play my Oty on turn 2 MORE OFTEN than my opponent" because that's were the real advantage is.
    With all the tricks currently used by rainbow decks (supernovas and hasten ability to speed up own quantum generation, explosion and devourers to slow down enemies, and many more) they can nearly compete with mono and duo decks, even at the game opening. That's a serious problem because mono/duo decks have very little chances against rainbow in mid/end-game.

    I can see 2 solution to balance this :
    * increase the disadvantage of rainbow decks in the first few turns of the game. That would create a "rush vs turtle" situation well known by all RTS players. Mono/duo would be rushers: they have to win quickly or they're f***ed. Rainbow would be turtles: they'd try to survive long enough for their strong cards to come into play and then it's won.
    * or make mono/duo decks stronger in end-game to have something balanced from the beginning to the end.

    The game only needs one thing for the second option to be possible: more content. Because what makes mono/duo decks weak end-game is their lack of diversity. With more choices in their element, they would have a chance to counter every key card that comes out of rainbow decks. For now, it's just impossible for them to compete.
    Luckily for us, our experts in the "suggestion" forum explained that it was very easy for Zanzarino to create new cards and features. I guess we just have to wait for him to take 5 minutes to implement that.

    Meanwhile, we can think about the first option: make rainbow weaker at opening. IMO, SG's suggestion to increase the cost of key cards is a very good way to achieve this. For now, if you play rainbow and have an Oty in your starting hand, you'll probably be able to summon it around turn 5/6. Most of the time, this delay isn't enough for your mono-Gravity opponent to make his own Oty grow and take the advantage over you. A higher card cost would increase this delay even more and it's a good thing. Rainbow decks would still be able to play a 10 gravity Oty. They would just do it later which is exactly what we want.
    It's just sad to notice that this solution is very complicated. Doing this in my trainers takes my more than 15 minutes!

    To conclude this long post, let me explain why Miracle is a bad example IMO: it's not an opening card. Very few speed decks can kill you in less than 5 turns and in most cases you won't have to cast Miracle before turn 8/10. At this point, even rainbow decks have enough quantums to cast expensive spells so the cost isn't really a problem. Even a 20 light Miracle would probably interest some people whereas a 10 gravity Oty or a 12 time Anubis would make many people hesitate seriously.

     

    anything
    blarg: