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Offline DaguerreoTopic starter

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Mirror Tower | Crystal Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36016.msg452815#msg452815
« on: January 26, 2012, 01:19:31 am »
NAME:
Mirror Tower
ELEMENT:
Aether
COST:
4 :aether
TYPE:
Permanent
ATK|HP:
TEXT:
:aether : Mirror
Turn Mirror Tower in target permanent.

NAME:
Crystal Tower
ELEMENT:
Aether
COST:
3 :aether
TYPE:
Permanent
ATK|HP:
TEXT:
:aether : Mirror
Turn Mirror Tower in target permanent.

ART:
Daguerreo
IDEA:
Daguerreo, jacker
NOTES:
Can't copy weapons or shields.
SERIES:

Offline furballdn

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Re: Mirror Tower | Crystal Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36016.msg452817#msg452817
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2012, 01:21:21 am »
If you copy a weapon or shield, it replaces the one you currently have right?

Offline Aves

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Re: Mirror Tower | Crystal Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36016.msg452818#msg452818
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2012, 01:24:44 am »
I think the cost should be increased, considering that most permanents that you'd target cost more. Maybe a cost increase of 1 or 2?
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Offline DaguerreoTopic starter

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Re: Mirror Tower | Crystal Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36016.msg452819#msg452819
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2012, 01:25:44 am »
If you copy a weapon or shield, it replaces the one you currently have right?
Card's concept is a building which reflect image of another one, so answer is you can't copy weapons or shields.

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Re: Mirror Tower | Crystal Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36016.msg452820#msg452820
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2012, 01:27:44 am »
Wait, so is it capable of copying a weapon/shield?
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Re: Mirror Tower | Crystal Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36016.msg452822#msg452822
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2012, 01:31:34 am »
I think the cost should be increased, considering that most permanents that you'd target cost more. Maybe a cost increase of 1 or 2?
I thought this:

4/3  :darkness Steal. Opponent lose permanent and you gain it.
3/2  :fire Deflagration. Opponent lose permanent.

2 :aether + 1 :light +1 turn wait / 1 :aether + 1 :light +1 turn wait = 3/2 +1 turn wait : You gain same opponent's permanent. Seems fair.

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Re: Mirror Tower | Crystal Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36016.msg452823#msg452823
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2012, 01:40:16 am »
But then the issue of 'copy' comes in. Parallel Universe costs 7/6. Why should this cost so much less? 7/6 means that it doesn't make sense to copy a smaller creature, most of the time. Phase dragon was nerfed because it could be copied, in element. While this isn't prevalent in Aether today as its creatures are either immaterial or too small to pay off, permanents do not have the same limitation.

Consider that you could gain, say, an extra 6 mindgates, sanctuaries, shards of Gratitude/void- I'm sure that 6 of these in Zen could make for quite a powerful deal.
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Mirror Tower | Crystal Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36016.msg452824#msg452824
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2012, 01:40:56 am »
I think the cost should be increased, considering that most permanents that you'd target cost more. Maybe a cost increase of 1 or 2?
I thought this:

4/3  :darkness Steal. Opponent lose permanent and you gain it.
3/2  :fire Deflagration. Opponent lose permanent.

2 :aether + 1 :light +1 turn wait / 1 :aether + 1 :light +1 turn wait = 3/2 +1 turn wait : You gain same opponent's permanent. Seems fair.
4 :darkness + 1 card = [5] -> Steal Permanent (aka Copy and Destroy Permanent)
3 :fire + 1 card = [4] -> Destroy Permanent
3 :underworld + Duo + 1 turn wait + 1 card = [6] -> Copy non item permanent?
Fair? No it is not fair.

Nor is it an apt comparision. Compare it rather to hard casting another of the permanent.
Ex: Unstable Gas + Mirror Tower vs 2x Unstable Gas
6 :air +2 :fire +2 :aether + 1 :light +2 turns of wait + 2 card +3 (Quad) = [18]
12 :air +2 :fire +2 turns of wait + 2 card +1 (Duo) = [19]

Graveyard + Crystal Tower vs 2x Graveyard
5 :death +2 :aether + 1 :light +1 turn of wait + 2 cards + 2(Trio) = [13]
10 :death + 2 cards = [12]
But then the issue of 'copy' comes in. Parallel Universe costs 7/6. Why should this cost so much less? 7/6 means that it doesn't make sense to copy a smaller creature, most of the time. Phase dragon was nerfed because it could be copied, in element. While this isn't prevalent in Aether today as its creatures are either immaterial or too small to pay off, permanents do not have the same limitation.

Consider that you could gain, say, an extra 6 mindgates, sanctuaries, shards of Gratitude/void- I'm sure that 6 of these in Zen could make for quite a powerful deal.
Creatures can be much more valuable than non item permanents. Crimson Dragon >> Unstable Gas
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Re: Mirror Tower | Crystal Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36016.msg452825#msg452825
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2012, 01:43:30 am »
I'm not talking about an opponent's permanent, but designing your deck to copy your own permanents. It's not stated explicitly that 'target' must belong to the opponent.
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Offline DaguerreoTopic starter

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Re: Mirror Tower | Crystal Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36016.msg452833#msg452833
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2012, 01:58:21 am »
I think the cost should be increased, considering that most permanents that you'd target cost more. Maybe a cost increase of 1 or 2?
I thought this:

4/3  :darkness Steal. Opponent lose permanent and you gain it.
3/2  :fire Deflagration. Opponent lose permanent.

2 :aether + 1 :light +1 turn wait / 1 :aether + 1 :light +1 turn wait = 3/2 +1 turn wait : You gain same opponent's permanent. Seems fair.
4 :darkness + 1 card = [5] -> Steal Permanent (aka Copy and Destroy Permanent)
3 :fire + 1 card = [4] -> Destroy Permanent
3 :underworld + Duo + 1 turn wait + 1 card = [6] -> Copy non item permanent?
Fair? No it is not fair.

Nor is it an apt comparision. Compare it rather to hard casting another of the permanent.
Ex: Unstable Gas + Mirror Tower vs 2x Unstable Gas
6 :air +2 :fire +2 :aether + 1 :light +2 turns of wait + 2 card +3 (Quad) = [18]
12 :air +2 :fire +2 turns of wait + 2 card +1 (Duo) = [19]

Graveyard + Crystal Tower vs 2x Graveyard
5 :death +2 :aether + 1 :light +1 turn of wait + 2 cards + 2(Trio) = [13]
10 :death + 2 cards = [12]
Interesting comparison, you're right.
What do you suggest about the cost?

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Re: Mirror Tower | Crystal Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36016.msg452836#msg452836
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2012, 02:08:24 am »
Interesting comparison, you're right.
What do you suggest about the cost?
Make it a mono card and check how expensive it is to copy rather than play multiples of permanents.

Mindgate 5|4 :aether +1 card
Sanctuary 4|3 :light + 1 card
Unstable Gas 6|5 :air +1 :fire +1 turn wait + 1 card +1 (Duo)
Boneyard | Graveyard 3|5 :death + 1 card
Empathic Bond | Feral Bond 5|4 :life + 1 card
Hourglass 4|4 :time + 1 card
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Offline jacker

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Re: Mirror Tower | Crystal Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36016.msg452934#msg452934
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2012, 09:10:49 am »
The cost is balanced i guess, considering the average cost of the non item permanents, the 1 turn wait and the fact that creatures are much valuable than permanents.

 

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