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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Mind Control|Mind Control https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24530.msg312679#msg312679
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2011, 03:45:13 am »
It is the job of the card designer to make the case for why this card suggestion would improve the game enough to justify the addition.

All temporary mind control becomes permanent if the game also has a sacrifice mechanic that works on the controlled creature.

Mind Control does not have a taboo however it is extremely difficult to balance due to the immolation loophole around the temporary nature.

3 :entropy +2 cards = 7 :fire:aether :air :darkness :death :earth :entropy :gravity :life :light :time :water + Targeted instant kill.
3 :entropy +0 cards is too small a cost for an instant kill. The cheapest instant kill is Freeze + Shockwave for  :water :air :air +2 cards.
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Offline AnarookTopic starter

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Re: Mind Control|Mind Control https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24530.msg312681#msg312681
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2011, 03:48:41 am »
So your saying the immo loophole causes this card to have too great an effect.
It'd be easy enough to say the creature can't be immo'd but that doesn't exactly sound right =/
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Re: Mind Control|Mind Control https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24530.msg312684#msg312684
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2011, 03:52:20 am »
It is the job of the card designer to make the case for why this card suggestion would improve the game enough to justify the addition.

All temporary mind control becomes permanent if the game also has a sacrifice mechanic that works on the controlled creature.

Mind Control does not have a taboo however it is extremely difficult to balance due to the immolation loophole around the temporary nature.

3 :entropy +2 cards = 7 :fire:aether :air :darkness :death :earth :entropy :gravity :life :light :time :water + Targeted instant kill.
3 :entropy +0 cards is too small a cost for an instant kill. The cheapest instant kill is Freeze + Shockwave for  :water :air :air +2 cards.
then youd have to grant the creature immaterial status for the duration of the effect. but that nullifies the concept all together.
you need two cards to instant kill, freeze and shockwave.
with this its no different, only more expensive by 1 quanta, and atm there is no sync between :fire and :entropy, only nova + fire deck.
but so what?

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Mind Control|Mind Control https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24530.msg312689#msg312689
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2011, 04:00:04 am »
Preventing Immolation from working on the target is a solution and has been tried before to decent success. However it would be vital to make sure that the immolation prevention made obvious sense with regard to how the mechanic worked.

Alternatively you could balance the cost against the loophole and then adjust the duration to compensate for the increased cost.


@Flayne
Actually 3q+0c vs 2+1q+2c is an approximate difference of 3 quanta not just 1. Also there is synergy between  :entropy and :fire. Supernova + Immolation.
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Re: Mind Control|Mind Control https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24530.msg312742#msg312742
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2011, 05:48:52 am »
Preventing Immolation from working on the target is a solution and has been tried before to decent success. However it would be vital to make sure that the immolation prevention made obvious sense with regard to how the mechanic worked.

Alternatively you could balance the cost against the loophole and then adjust the duration to compensate for the increased cost.


@Flayne
Actually 3q+0c vs 2+1q+2c is an approximate difference of 3 quanta not just 1. Also there is synergy between  :entropy and :fire. Supernova + Immolation.
OH cmon! Nova has synergy with all elements, thats Basic.
and it doesnt matter, all you need is 2 cards that can insta kill, another duo wouldnt hurt much, especially if there isnt a duo card between fire and entropy.

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Re: Mind Control|Mind Control https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24530.msg312744#msg312744
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2011, 05:51:55 am »
But the duo's actually mono since Immolation is free. :P
Shockwave and Freeze at least cost quantum from their respective elements.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Mind Control|Mind Control https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24530.msg312747#msg312747
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2011, 05:58:35 am »
Preventing Immolation from working on the target is a solution and has been tried before to decent success. However it would be vital to make sure that the immolation prevention made obvious sense with regard to how the mechanic worked.

Alternatively you could balance the cost against the loophole and then adjust the duration to compensate for the increased cost.


@Flayne
Actually 3q+0c vs 2+1q+2c is an approximate difference of 3 quanta not just 1. Also there is synergy between  :entropy and :fire. Supernova + Immolation.
OH cmon! Nova has synergy with all elements, thats Basic.
and it doesnt matter, all you need is 2 cards that can insta kill, another duo wouldnt hurt much, especially if there isnt a duo card between fire and entropy.
I am not against this idea. Did you misunderstand that? I just was pointing out that Immolation (a speed rainbow card) had synergy on the order of +3quanta value above the standard. Hence adjusting the card either to avoid or better still to balance that synergy would be needed. Since Immolation is not a pure Fire card the synergy with Supernova is worth noting because it is in the same deck genre. Quanta structure synergy is what I was referring to and Nova does not have quanta structure synergy with any other element. [If you require a non quanta structure synergy then gaze at Fire Shield + Maxwell's Demon. However that would not be relevant to the Immolation point.]
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Re: Mind Control|Mind Control https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24530.msg312956#msg312956
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2011, 03:20:36 pm »
It seems we all support the idea then, i just hope others will actually read everything that was said here before they just make
an instant  card read 'n' post action.

Offline AnarookTopic starter

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Re: Mind Control|Mind Control https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24530.msg312977#msg312977
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2011, 04:19:58 pm »
So the idea is supported, just not balanced.
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Mind Control|Mind Control https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24530.msg312983#msg312983
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2011, 04:31:47 pm »
So the idea is supported, just not balanced.
Correct.

However you will still need to:
Balance it
Justify "why entropy?"
Justify "why temporary creature control would benefit the game"

These questions need to be addressed even if we agree.
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Re: Mind Control|Mind Control https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24530.msg313008#msg313008
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2011, 05:14:40 pm »
So the idea is supported, just not balanced.
Correct.

However you will still need to:
Balance it
Justify "why entropy?"
Justify "why temporary creature control would benefit the game"

These questions need to be addressed even if we agree.
I doubt it would fit as entropy as it runs on luck, infinite probabilities (randomness) and disorder, not direct manipulation of senses or subconscious as that is a direct approach rather than a random one, and it isnt associated with disorder because it only has one direct stage in mind control, not a disorderly function which leads to it.
so my vote goes to  :darkness which is the element that is associated with the hypnotic, manipulation/dulling of senses or subconscious.

direct temporary creature control would benefit the game because concept wise, it needs/lacks it. mechanically, it is basically a temporary PU but that leaves teh opponent without their creature. This can be done a max of 6 times to the same creature if targeting it. so in total, you could have control of it for 18-24 turns. But thats only if you are able to draw a all of the same card from your deck. I say lowering the max turns so that it doesn't cause that spamming problem, however the cost has to be lowered aswell so that it is still efficient. But that can possibly make a cheap temporary PU which leaves teh opponent without a creature temporarily. I'd say this is the main reason that mind control is not often supported. But concept wise, i'd say tis necessary, especially in an element that specializes in the manipulation of senses and the subconscious,  :darkness Darkness.

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Re: Mind Control|Mind Control https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24530.msg313011#msg313011
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2011, 05:21:30 pm »
So the idea is supported, just not balanced.
Correct.

However you will still need to:
Balance it
Justify "why entropy?"
Justify "why temporary creature control would benefit the game"

These questions need to be addressed even if we agree.
I doubt it would fit as entropy as it runs on luck, infinite probabilities (randomness) and disorder, not direct manipulation of senses or subconscious as that is a direct approach rather than a random one, and it isnt associated with disorder because it only has one direct stage in mind control, not a disorderly function which leads to it.
so my vote goes to  :darkness which is the element that is associated with the hypnotic, manipulation/dulling of senses or subconscious.

direct temporary creature control would benefit the game because concept wise, it needs/lacks it. mechanically, it is basically a temporary PU but that leaves teh opponent without their creature. This can be done a max of 6 times to the same creature if targeting it. so in total, you could have control of it for 18-24 turns. But thats only if you are able to draw a all of the same card from your deck. I say lowering the max turns so that it doesn't cause that spamming problem, however the cost has to be lowered aswell so that it is still efficient. But that can possibly make a cheap temporary PU which leaves teh opponent without a creature temporarily. I'd say this is the main reason that mind control is not often supported. But concept wise, i'd say tis necessary, especially in an element that specializes in the manipulation of senses and the subconscious,  :darkness Darkness.
I agree it fits Darkness more.

However I underlined a section that needs justification. The game also lacks instant win cards but does not need them nor would they be beneficial. I do not see how the game needs mind control effects. Would you explain? If the game does not need mind control effects and mind control would still be a beneficial addition please explain why.
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anything
blarg: