Langolier | Langolier

[ZephyrPhantom]

Since Ghost of the Past already fills the range of midhitter for Time, I'd advise trying to not give a card idea similar stats (the card pool is too small ATM too handle cards with near-identical roles - see Armagio and Massive Dragon).

I did respond to this criticism.  Midrange damage cards for time are expensive compared to similar cards in other elements.  This wouldn't alter that balance at all.  If it's card quantity in a hand that people are worried about, fractal already upsets the balance for Life by giving access to a swarm of 2 cost 5|3 frogs.

Have you ever tried a deck like I've GotP Time (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,22028.0.html)?  It generally takes a long time to build the quanta to fractal spam GotP, hence there are a lot of stall cards in that deck to slow the game down.  It works against FGs because we know what's in their decks and can plan a game around it.  In a PvP scenario, stalling isn't really the best option since anyone with a rush deck that can also steal or destroy your shields or momentum their creatures is likely to steamroll you.  Sundials can help stall for time, but can be destroyed and stolen too.

....

The reason I like this idea is that it fits in well with Time in general.  Time eventually gets you.  It creates a possible strategy for permanent placement (order matters).  It is counterable in many forms, and I posted a list of cards that would cause this one a lot of trouble and every element has a strategy available to it to counter this.  Thoughts?

Yes, I have played GoTP time. I've even tried several PvP variations of it.

The Massive Dragon vs. Armagio case is a case not of card quantity, nor of which is going to be more expensive - it's matter of two very similar cards that work in similar manners (with slight differences) and will most likely find their roles in very similar decks. This leads to one card becoming underused (Massive Dragon), which in turn causes a lot of people to want a buff, but that buff in turn is difficult to place because it has a good chance to imbalance the other card (Armagio) in the process.

In a case like Langolier and GoTP, I feel Langolier would become the superior card and would replace GoTP in such a deck for being:
- A solid midhitter (same role)
- Continuous PC (Time has none yet)
- Cheaper (Fractal still has the same impact regardless, as players have demonstrated by switching Light Dragons out for Archangels in RoL/Hope decks. However Light Dragon is Light's Bighitter and Archangel is Light's Anti-CC/Midhitter, so they conflict much less.)

The charges sounds like a good balancing move, but it doesn't do much to fix the similarity problem from my point of view.


I would suggest somehow altering the card's stats so that it does not conflict with the other times cards as much, but my problem is that Time currently has a card for small, medium, and large hitters (Scarab, GoTP, and Devonian Dragon respectively.) A switch to a permanent is another possible option - though you would have to change the theme in that case? (Make it like an essence or sand-like entity, or something similar? Changing the theme might also help you find usable art as well.)

[AtomicTesting]

Yes, I have played GoTP time. I've even tried several PvP variations of it.

The Massive Dragon vs. Armagio case is a case not of card quantity, nor of which is going to be more expensive - it's matter of two very similar cards that work in similar manners (with slight differences) and will most likely find their roles in very similar decks. This leads to one card becoming underused (Massive Dragon), which in turn causes a lot of people to want a buff, but that buff in turn is difficult to place because it has a good chance to imbalance the other card (Armagio) in the process.

Your comparison is apt, but I think that actually makes a better case for GotP to get some changes in general.  It's a fairly blah card and, due to its high cost, I'd rather use the dragon to fill his role and Anubis for a midrange.  Other than Nightmare (that has a nice surprise effect in PvP sometimes), GoTP isn't a very good card.

A switch to a permanent is another possible option - though you would have to change the theme in that case? (Make it like an essence or sand-like entity, or something similar? Changing the theme might also help you find usable art as well.)

I think this would be much worse than making any other cards obsolete.  As noted, there's not a lot of PC in Elements to begin with.  That would leave players of many varieties of decks without PC to deal with it.  Also, it would fulfill the role of a Pulverizer and not take a weapon slot.  Thus, it would be harder to get rid of (permanent) and improve some kinds of rainbow decks' ability to shut down the early game.  That is a common criticism of Earthquake|Quicksand in the "nerf this card" discussion, and I think it's pretty fair because it does cause most of the elements serious quanta problems if played early enough.  Creature control is in every element's hands (its HP was picked so as to make it more of a nuisance than a game-changer to many decks), hence why I thought a creature might be a good choice.

There are other ways to deal with the art issue.  I can't believe people are making such a big deal about it.  This forum is on the very lowest rung of the process - where ideas come to be challenged and, for most of them, die.  They shouldn't be dying over petty issues like whether I drew the picture in MS paint or grabbed a photo from Google Images to stand in its place until it can be replaced with art that matches the color scheme and drawing style of much of the art in game already.  It's obvious that the picture does not look good for the card.  Cards should be dying because they're simply not good ideas or they're just not interesting enough to want to play with and there's no way to really salvage them.  If this can't be salvaged, that's fine.  It's just in the idea phase now.  People need to chill a bit and not be so adversarial over trivialities that really don't affect them or anyone else.

The questions to be answered, in my opinion, are:

Can this card be balanced?Does it bring something interesting to the game worth exploring?Would anyone want to play with it?Does it fit the theme of the element?Are there other cards/strategies this could be played with which would seriously alter balance and it cannot be changed to resolve?

Good reasons could be given for any of those (not excluding other good reasons not on my list) that would make it clear that it's not worth pursuing.  The damage can be changed to make it lower-end.  GotP is actually what I'd call an upper-mid range damage or a low high damage card.  It's too costly to play as most elements play midrange, and its ability is useless outside of pairing with only one other card in the game.

If its damage were lowered to 3|2 and its ability changed to a longer summon sickness type effect, as mentioned, would that balance it well and still bring something new and interesting to elements?

[ZephyrPhantom]

Can this card be balanced? Yes.Does it bring something interesting to the game worth exploring? Maybe.Would anyone want to play with it? Yes. PC for time.Does it fit the theme of the element? You explained it already. Yes.Are there other cards/strategies this could be played with which would seriously alter balance and it cannot be changed to resolve? Probably needs some kind of playtesting for that to be figured out.

Good reasons could be given for any of those (not excluding other good reasons not on my list) that would make it clear that it's not worth pursuing.  The damage can be changed to make it lower-end.  GotP is actually what I'd call an upper-mid range damage or a low high damage card.  It's too costly to play as most elements play midrange, and its ability is useless outside of pairing with only one other card in the game.

If its damage were lowered to 3|2 and its ability changed to a longer summon sickness type effect, as mentioned, would that balance it well and still bring something new and interesting to elements?
I was thinking this originally when I suggested lowering stats but then there is the concern of Fractal. With charges though, it doesn't seem that unreasonable since your opponent gets a few extra turns of damage/stalling in.

[AtomicTesting]

Those questions were meant rhetorically.   They're just what I go through when I am reading others' card suggestions.

In the end, it hardly matters what happens to the permanents or creatures.  Those only exist to facilitate bringing a player's HP below zero.  How early would fractal have to be played to make a serious impact, do you think, even with the summoning sickness delay?  In other words, how long would an effective summoning sickness have to be so that the card is still useful but not devastating no matter its pairing with other cards?  Does my goal of targeting the midgame as an erosion strategy seem sensible to you?  If someone waited too long to pull this off, it would be pretty ineffective because the opponent would be sitting on a mountain of generated quanta already (or have already spent it all, in which case they're going to win or lose anyway based upon how they spent it and this would be unlikely to alter that course).  If they could use it too heavily too early, obvious problems for the whole game would ensue.

I would like for it to fit in as a card with a similar characteristic to poison decks.  Poisons can take a while to kill a player, with stalling and healing accounted for, but they are eventually effective if the game is drawn out too long.  Time has the ability to draw out a game, though that's obviously no guaranteed means of victory.

The card could be renamed something like "Eroding Dust Devil" with an upgrade "Eroding Sandstorm" per your suggestion.  That avoids anyone's discomfort with the name or image.  It sounds more like a spell than a creature, but it's a game with magic in it, so we sprinkle the magical fairy dust of "fiction" on it and it's now a living critter.

[SnoWeb]

Making a new creature in Time is a difficult task because:

Time has the highest number of creature of the 12 elements (9).These creatures are spread in atk from 0 to 13 and in HP from 1 to 8.We do not want to change the identity of the element. Time isn't a rush element. The fact that the higher hitter are expensive oblige the Time player to find other strategies that the pure rush. If you add an other mid-range you'll give time the opportunity to rush as fast as a graboid rush. Doing that you'll remove a bit of the identity of both time and earth.

At the present stage langolier as the following problems:

It has a stolen art. Here are some royalty free alternative:

http://www.sxc.hu/photo/715284 or http://www.sxc.hu/photo/209717Compared to other PC, the ability is too cheap and IMO too strong.It steps on GotP's feet quite hard. It is cheaper and it has a way better ability. This would be solve by a drastic increase in cost.It is way to cheap. 5 atk + a repeatable PC should + mono card => should not cost less than 7 or 8 . The problem is that at this cost it steps on Anubis feet.[/list]
How to solve that

Make a creature in another (fitting) element which has opened creature niches (lowest number of creatures: aether (5), Air (6), Fire (6) and Light (6).
orMake the ability being a spell. In a similar way as Butterfly effect. this is not easy but it could work.
orChange the ability to make it less powerful.
orFind another empty creature niche in time. It is hard (as I said above but doable). For example Time has no 0HP creature. It would then need a buff to survive and would work perfectly with heavy armor and earthquake.

Examples of directions: