Langolier | Langolier

[AtomicTesting]

There may also be copyright issues with the word 'Langolier' or 'Langoliers'.

The Langoliers is one of four novellas published in the Stephen King book Four Past Midnight in 1990. It was published more than 20 years ago so you are pretty safe on this side I would say.
However, the website where you took the image clearly states "All material © 2010 for leveridgedesign.com: unauthorized reproduction strictly prohibited." just right under the image you used. I would say that is not allowed ...

About the card Idea in itself. Few PC are available in game:

2 Spells: Steal and Deflagration. They have the same limitations as every spells - not more than 6 copies ...1 Weapon: Pulveriser. Duo card ( / ) + you need to combine it with Animate Weapon or Crusader if you want to have more than one copy in game.Butterfly effect: Needs to be combined with a low attack creature. 2 card combo + very expensive ability ( : destroy).

Your idea is interesting but it is mono card with a cheaper repetitive PC ability which does not need any other card to be present in multiple copies in the game. I would say it is either to cheap or too powerful in this form.

Yep, the image is listed as being "lifted", which is a polite way of saying I used it without permission (stolen art).  Someone can surely do better art that matches the color scheme.

Don't forget that there is the chance for druids/mutation to convert cards into destruction cards.  As far as I've seen, there aren't a ton of options on what the advanced mutation will give a creature so steal and destroy come up fairly often.  Combined with Butterfly effect it is fairly easy to get an army of destroyers for pretty cheap.

Do note that this has a pretty hefty weakness: the player gets no choice about what is destroyed.  That is somewhat left in the hands of the opponent.  All of the rest of the destroy/steal cards allow the player to select what they want gone.  As mentioned prior, the Langoliers would likely be eating through a lot of pillars first, one at a time, unless the other player cleverly used permanents like shards in between putting pillars out so as to keep some pillars safe for longer (depending on whether they need the shards or pillars more).  It would also stall people on putting out certain valuable cards, like shields, without enchant artifact until they've insulated those useful cards with a good chunk of other permanents, that way Langoliers would have to spend a good chunk of time eating through stuff that would not really harm the opponent through the midgame.

I wouldn't be opposed to making it more expensive or weakening it in some other way.  The low defense is meant to be a huge weakness for this card.  Having a higher attack than defense is intentional: Maxwell's demon car rip Langoliers a new one.

The following defenses can be put up against it for each of the elements:
Entropy:  Maxwell's Demon, Mutate, Pandemonium, Antimatter.
Death: Virus, Plague, Aflatoxin
Gravity: Gravity pull, Otyugh, Acceleration
Earth:  Enchant artifact, Basilisk blood (probably not a great idea), Iridium warden
Life: Thorn Carapace
Fire: Fire Bolt, Fire Shield, Rain of Fire, Rage Potion
Water:  Freeze, Ice Bolt, Ice Shield, Toadfish, Mind flayer, Arctic Squid, Flooding (situational)
Light: None, save that Morning Star, Reflective Shield, and Hope cannot be destroyed.
Air: Thunderstorm, Unstable Gas, Shockwave and Owl's eye.
Time:  Reverse time, Scarabs, Procrastination.
Darkness:  Parasite, Drain Life, Liquid Shadow, Cloak (that might be an interesting twist, to make the Langolier ignore cloak, since you can't hide from Time)
Aether:  Lightning, Parallel Universe (nasty), Silence, Lobotomizer

Other than the traditional methods of trying to keep a low hp creature from being destroyed quickly, there are really a lot of methods in the game to be rid of them.  Life and Light are somewhat weak to this, but a Life mono rush will beat a slow strategy most of the time anyway.  Also, Life has ways of getting life quanta (Rustlers) as does light (Ray of Light and Luciferin) which well insulate them from the dangers of permanent destruction.

[AtomicTesting]

Add this ^^ to the fact that it's another semi-respectable midrange attacker for Time and you've got some serious balance issues.

Do note that time does not have low cost mid-range damage.  Time is expensive (I wonder if any pun is intended here), which makes it particularly vulnerable to quantum denial strategies.

Deja Vu and Time Egg are really situational - you have to pull some form of buff card to make Deja better prior to copying and Time Egg is a crap shoot.  You could end up with a Golden Dragon or a Spark.  Devonian Dragon is high cost high damage.  Anubis is high cost midrange damage.  Scarab is low cost, low damage.  Dune Scorpion is another situational, since it's a no damage card if you don't pull a buff for it (like blessing).

Compare to most of the other elements and you'll see that a lot of them have some decent midrange damage for a midrange cost (unless they have something really nice on them, like the Sapphire charger's momentum).  Another midrange damage for a high cost in time wouldn't be much of a change at all, in my opinion.  The damage could be potentially lowered, though I think that it's best to keep the balance between damage/hp where it is (higher than hp) so that it remains vulnerable to Maxwell's demon, and to keep the hp under 5 so that upgraded Otyughs can still eat them with ease.  Pretty much all of the elements have a low cost counter to this card as designed (listed in a post prior to this one).

What might you suggest to improve the balance of this card?

[AtomicTesting]

The permanents have an "attack order", like the creatures, so the Langolier would attack the 1. If not existent, the 2.. etc etc.

It's a great idea but I believe it's way OP, since an early Langolier would eat all pillars played, making the use of Enchant Artifact more common.. and less mono decks.. and more rainbows.. or mono earth.. etc etc..
BUT DAMN, ADD TO THE GAME AND LET'S SEE WHAT HAPPENS!  8)

If that made it way OP, then quicksand must be ultra mega OP (destroys three for a really low cost).   If you don't pull pillars based upon sheer luck (or a crappy PRNG) then you've really got more problems than this card is going to cause you anyway.  Trident is extremely nasty, strongly mitigated by the change of quantum cost to use it.  The Langolier has a powerful effect, mitigated by a lack of choice over what it eats.  Pillarless decks or decks with other strategies for quantum creation (light and life) only have to fear the Langolier eating their shields/weapons.  That is a danger anyone faces from Fire or Darkness as it is (or Earth+Gravity if Pulverizer is considered), the solution to which might be destroying the Langolier and replacing the shield/weapon with a backup in the deck.  A Fire Shield would eat the Langolier alive in three turns (allowing it only two effective uses of its ability for four quanta).

I really don't want this card to be an early game devastator but more designed to erode the mid to endgame so that it's hard to keep struggling against Time if you don't take care of the Langoliers somewhere along the way.  What might you suggest to get it there?

I like the idea of something like charges (like the steam machine).  Maybe if it were given charges based upon attacks instead of quanta.  Maybe every successful attack gives the Langolier a charge, up to three.  When it reaches the third charge it can start eating permanents.  That actually fits quite well with the Langoliers in the story as well, since it takes quite a while for them to arrive.  That would also make strategies like freeze even more effective against it.  Permafrost shield would likely ruin Langoliers then, in any quantity.  An early played Fire Shield would get rid of any of them before they got a chance to unleash their devastation.  Buffing up a single Langolier would then be like using Quintessence on a creature with Butterfly Effect, with the weakness of not being able to pick what gets destroyed.

[SnoWeb]

Yep, the image is listed as being "lifted", which is a polite way of saying I used it without permission (stolen art).  Someone can surely do better art that matches the color scheme.

Stealing art is against the politic of this forum. Please remove it.

[AtomicTesting]

Yep, the image is listed as being "lifted", which is a polite way of saying I used it without permission (stolen art).  Someone can surely do better art that matches the color scheme.

Stealing art is against the politic of this forum. Please remove it.

I do not intend for the card to be kept that way at all.  It's a placeholder image to give people who have never seen "The Langoliers" an idea of what they look like.

I read the policy prior to posting and made it clear where the image came from and that it is copyrighted material, providing a link to the page of the artist (though I think it's actually a picture).  There appears to be no policy against using placeholder art and giving credit.  My hopes are that any issues with the card's strengths can be hammered out and, if it is deemed acceptable by the community, an artist can step forward who would like to depict the toothy critter.  I would never ask that this be pushed on to the next level without dealing with the art issue first.

Edit:  It also appears that the site to which I linked is not the owner of that image either, since it appears on a number of other sites.  I'll track it down if possible, but the authorship is currently unknown.

[918273645]

There may also be copyright issues with the word 'Langolier' or 'Langoliers'.

Dungeons and Dragons has Otyugh copyrighted.

[Essence]

There may also be copyright issues with the word 'Langolier' or 'Langoliers'.

Dungeons and Dragons has Otyugh copyrighted.

Not according to the US Copyright website.  They have "Neo-Otyugh (http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=1&ti=1,1&Search%5FArg=Otyugh&Search%5FCode=FT%2A&CNT=25&PID=SEIoTVa_cUeM3hyLUnKYqL-dqggZ2&SEQ=20110615204750&SID=3)" copyrighted, but not just "Otyugh".

[AtomicTesting]

As I stated previously, words cannot be copyrighted.  There is nothing anyone has to do to copyright anything, a copyright protection is automatically extended to any new work.  The work has to be longer than a "short phrase", which obviously excludes words.  Trademarks, however, can be issued to protect certain kinds of words or phrases (ones that refer to products or services).

The copyright of the neo-otyugh is actually a copyright for a figurine, which is a piece of art, not a word.

[Genuinous]

Why are we arguing about Neo-Otyugh copyright issues, when the picture used on this card is a clear violation of basic rules?

[AtomicTesting]

Why are we arguing about Neo-Otyugh copyright issues, when the picture used on this card is a clear violation of basic rules?

It is not that clear a violation of any rules.  I read them.  I'm not trying to deceive anyone.

I will say this again, in a very visible way:

THE PICTURE IS NOT INTENDED TO BE USED IN ANY ACTUAL CARD.

If the card is approved then we can worry about getting some art made for it.  It would be a huge waste of someone's time and talent to ask them to make a picture for a card that isn't going to go anywhere.  Can we at least be reasonable about this?

Let's be frank here.  It is quite likely that not a single one of you is a copyright lawyer.  You're not forum police.  You're not internet police.  You're not copyright police.  You're ordinary people, just like me, who happen to play a video game.

If we're playing pot/kettle with one another, then I will point out that there is a precedent:  one of the forum administrators did the same thing and nobody gave her a hard time about it.  HERO CARDS by Scaredgirl (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=413.0).  It's an ancient thread for these forums.  None of the art was done by Scaredgirl as far as I can tell.  Here is one of the pieces of art with the original artist's info on it: The Machine .

Can we PLEASE talk about the card and not about distractions that have nothing at all to do with it?

[ZephyrPhantom]

What might be causing confusion here is that the interpretation of said rules has changed since those old days in CI&A when the forums had less organization, since that thread you showed is pretty old. Using copyrighted art (even as placeholder) isn't very much recommended by anyone, much less the actual Curators.

My suggestion would be ask a Curator for clarification on the art usage rules of this forum, for posterity's sake.

As for balance critique:

About the card Idea in itself. Few PC are available in game:

2 Spells: Steal and Deflagration. They have the same limitations as every spells - not more than 6 copies ...1 Weapon: Pulveriser. Duo card ( / ) + you need to combine it with Animate Weapon or Crusader if you want to have more than one copy in game.Butterfly effect: Needs to be combined with a low attack creature. 2 card combo + very expensive ability ( : destroy).

Your idea is interesting but it is mono card with a cheaper repetitive PC ability which does not need any other card to be present in multiple copies in the game. I would say it is either to cheap or too powerful in this form.

Add this ^^ to the fact that it's another semi-respectable midrange attacker for Time and you've got some serious balance issues.

Since Ghost of the Past already fills the range of midhitter for Time, I'd advise trying to not give a card idea similar stats (the card pool is too small ATM too handle cards with near-identical roles - see Armagio and Massive Dragon).

Just my .

[AtomicTesting]

Since Ghost of the Past already fills the range of midhitter for Time, I'd advise trying to not give a card idea similar stats (the card pool is too small ATM too handle cards with near-identical roles - see Armagio and Massive Dragon).

I did respond to this criticism.  Midrange damage cards for time are expensive compared to similar cards in other elements.  This wouldn't alter that balance at all.  If it's card quantity in a hand that people are worried about, fractal already upsets the balance for Life by giving access to a swarm of 2 cost 5|3 frogs.

Have you ever tried a deck like I've GotP Time (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,22028.0.html)?  It generally takes a long time to build the quanta to fractal spam GotP, hence there are a lot of stall cards in that deck to slow the game down.  It works against FGs because we know what's in their decks and can plan a game around it.  In a PvP scenario, stalling isn't really the best option since anyone with a rush deck that can also steal or destroy your shields or momentum their creatures is likely to steamroll you.  Sundials can help stall for time, but can be destroyed and stolen too.

Anyway, I SnoWeb and Essence gave criticism, and I value that.  I would like to see some constructive criticism though (not to imply that their criticism was destructive, it just didn't come with any suggestions).  What ideas do any of you have that would fix problems you perceive with the function of the card?

What do you think of this idea that I posted earlier?

I really don't want this card to be an early game devastator but more designed to erode the mid to endgame so that it's hard to keep struggling against Time if you don't take care of the Langoliers somewhere along the way.  What might you suggest to get it there?

I like the idea of something like charges (like the steam machine).  Maybe if it were given charges based upon attacks instead of quanta.  Maybe every successful attack gives the Langolier a charge, up to three.  When it reaches the third charge it can start eating permanents.  That actually fits quite well with the Langoliers in the story as well, since it takes quite a while for them to arrive.  That would also make strategies like freeze even more effective against it.  Permafrost shield would likely ruin Langoliers then, in any quantity.  An early played Fire Shield would get rid of any of them before they got a chance to unleash their devastation.  Buffing up a single Langolier would then be like using Quintessence on a creature with Butterfly Effect, with the weakness of not being able to pick what gets destroyed.

That was in response to a suggestion by Leo involving a similar mechanic to how Steam works for Water decks.  It would slow Langoliers down quite a bit so that nobody can come up with a clever early game strategy to devastate their opponent: one round in play = one charge, up to (some arbitrary number to slow it).  It would be like a multiple round summoning sickness.  The critter can hit, but can't activate its ability until it has been in play a while.

The reason I like this idea is that it fits in well with Time in general.  Time eventually gets you.  It creates a possible strategy for permanent placement (order matters).  It is counterable in many forms, and I posted a list of cards that would cause this one a lot of trouble and every element has a strategy available to it to counter this.  Thoughts?