Elements the Game Forum - Free Online Fantasy Card Game

Elements the Game => Card Ideas and Art => Topic started by: darkrobe on October 31, 2011, 11:59:40 pm

Title: Holtzman Shield | Holtzman Shield
Post by: darkrobe on October 31, 2011, 11:59:40 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/MG4SH.png)	(http://i.imgur.com/U6Im4.png)
NAME: Holtzman Shield ELEMENT: Gravity COST: 5  :gravity TYPE: Permanent ATK|HP: TEXT: Shield: Only slowed creatures or weapons can attack you. Lasts 4 turns.	NAME: Holtzman Shield ELEMENT: Gravity COST: 4  :gravity TYPE: Permanent ATK|HP: TEXT: Shield: Only slowed creatures or weapons can attack you. Lasts 4 turns.

ART: Darkrobe. although better art suggestions would be appreciated IDEA: Darkrobe (with input from Naesala) NOTES: For those who are unfamiliar, the holtzman shield is from the book DUNE and is described as follows: SHIELD, DEFENSIVE: the protective field produced by a Holtzman generator. This field derives from Phase One of the suspensor-nullification effect. A shield will permit entry only to objects moving at slow speeds (depending on setting, this speed ranges from six to nine centimeters per second) and can be shorted out only by a shire-sized electric field. So in my imagination this card is the elements equivalent. A shield that only allows "slow" creatures and weapons to attack you for 4 turns. What does this mean? It means that any of your opponent's creatures (or weapon) that have been stalled, frozen, timebubbled, guard-ed, basilisk blood-ed, sundial-ed,, etc.  attack as if they were not stalled/slowed at all. And any creatures (or weapon) that are not affected by one of these effects do not attack this turn. What does that mean in gameplay and what is it comparable to? You can think of this card as the "Wings" of gravity. a shield with defensive power somewhere between dimensional shield and wings. You play this card and for 4 turns, delayed creatures attack normally, and all other creatures act as if they are under the effect of a sundial. (for those of you that are wondering, this card will protect you from momentum-ed creatures because the shield is not blocking their damage, it is stopping creatures from attacking if they are not slow.) it seems the definition of momentum prevents this effect by definition. Specific "Slow" effect causing cards: Freeze Arctic octopus iridium warden basilisk blood procrastination sundial chaos seed (sometimes) pandemonium (sometimes) Suggested counters: having vanadium warden guard your own creatures. having arctic octopus freeze your own creatures. Sundial to allow all your creatures to attack Counters to the counters: Shockwave to destroy frozen creatures. SERIES:

Title: Re: Holtzman Shield | Holtzman Shield
Post by: darkrobe on November 01, 2011, 12:01:21 am

Recently moved from pre-smithy. name change suggestions to avoid copyright issues may be needed. and comments on balancing are welcome!  ;D

Title: Re: Holtzman Shield | Holtzman Shield
Post by: GG on November 01, 2011, 12:31:23 am

First, with the design part... Any explanation on Holtzman? <_<

Also, I'd like some wording changes. The only effect I can think of when I hear the word 'slowed' is stuck in a time bubble (by attacking :time shield). Maybe it should be something like "Only creatures who would normally not be able to attack can attack".  This would then also include creatures facing a gravity-pulled creatures, etc.



Now... this card is virtually the second Phase Shield and I'm not sure if there would be people who're willing to accept it. It IS an interesting idea, I admit, since, for example, the opponents would use CCs on their creatures to bypass the shield.

However, I thought more deeply and realized this could fill up the lack of a good shield in Gravity element. I wonder what others would think about it, though.

Title: Re: Holtzman Shield | Holtzman Shield
Post by: Naesala on November 01, 2011, 12:40:05 am

You could clear up the "what does it mean?" y just saying delayed, frozen, or affected by sundial. The other terms are just ways of being delayed

List of ways to be slowed:
Freeze
Arctic octopus
iridium warden
basilisk blood
procrastination
sundial
chaos seed (sometimes)
pandemonium (sometimes)

gravity force/pull you still attack, just not the player

Title: Re: Holtzman Shield | Holtzman Shield
Post by: GG on November 01, 2011, 12:47:59 am

Quote from: Naesala on November 01, 2011, 12:40:05 am

List of ways to be slowed:
Freeze
Arctic octopus
iridium warden
basilisk blood
procrastination
sundial
chaos seed (sometimes)
pandemonium (sometimes)

gravity force/pull you still attack, just not the player

Procrastination probably should be out of that list since this one's a shield too, after all <_<

Weelll... unless the user had procrastination, opponent creatures got delayed, then the user changed the shield to Holtzman. Don't ask why would anyone do such a thing.

And you're right about gravity pull.

Title: Re: Holtzman Shield | Holtzman Shield
Post by: Naesala on November 01, 2011, 12:58:30 am

may not be smart but it -could- happen

Title: Re: Holtzman Shield | Holtzman Shield
Post by: darkrobe on November 01, 2011, 01:22:45 am

Quote from: girlsgeneration on November 01, 2011, 12:31:23 am

First, with the design part... Any explanation on Holtzman? <_<

Its in the notes...

Quote from: girlsgeneration on November 01, 2011, 12:31:23 am

Also, I'd like some wording changes. The only effect I can think of when I hear the word 'slowed' is stuck in a time bubble (by attacking :time shield). Maybe it should be something like "Only creatures who would normally not be able to attack can attack".  This would then also include creatures facing a gravity-pulled creatures, etc.

well the current wording is to keep it from getting excessively explanatory in the card itself. i think i could specify the exact effects that are allowed through the shield in the notes. the use of the word "slowed" is also tied into the background of why the card is the way it is.

Quote from: girlsgeneration on November 01, 2011, 12:31:23 am

Now... this card is virtually the second Phase Shield and I'm not sure if there would be people who're willing to accept it. It IS an interesting idea, I admit, since, for example, the opponents would use CCs on their creatures to bypass the shield.

However, I thought more deeply and realized this could fill up the lack of a good shield in Gravity element. I wonder what others would think about it, though.

Yes, that was one of the reasons I made it gravity and not some other element. because of gravities current lack of a strong shield.

As far as the strength of the card goes. it was pointed out in the pre-smithy that this was possibly OP. but Id like people to make suggestions as to how to balance out its strength. it is strong like dimensional shield, but using a different mechanic that is mmore suited to gravity. I think anyway.

Title: Re: Holtzman Shield | Holtzman Shield
Post by: Naesala on November 01, 2011, 01:39:57 am

cards to deal with 3 turn dim shield: 2 from one element+potentially any creature
momentum (can be applid to any creature)
saphiric charger

cards to deal with 4 turn holtzman: 7 from 4 elements + potentially all creatures
Freeze (can be applied to any creature)
Arctic octopus (can be applied to any creature)
iridium warden(can be applied to any creature)
basilisk blood (can be applied to any creature)
sundial (will be applied to all creatures)
chaos seed (sometimes) (any creature)
pandemonium (sometimes) (all creatures)

cards to deal with 5 turn wings: 30 from all elements
12 Dragons
Maxwell Demon
Vulture
Virus
Rustler
Forest Spirit
Fire Spirit
Phoenix
Photon
Pegasus
Angel
Wyrm
Firefly Queen
Firefly
Deja Vu
Scarab
Gargoyle
Vampire
Spark

Title: Re: Holtzman Shield | Holtzman Shield
Post by: OldTrees on November 01, 2011, 01:42:22 am

2 -> 5 counters does not seem to warrant -1 casting cost and +1 turn.
I would go 3 turns and cost 5 :gravity|4 :gravity

Title: Re: Holtzman Shield | Holtzman Shield
Post by: Naesala on November 01, 2011, 01:53:46 am

Ah, hadn't payed attention to the quanta cost he put. 5|4 for 3 sounds fair. otherwise...hm, 7|6 for 4 turns? meh, whatever.

Title: Re: Holtzman Shield | Holtzman Shield
Post by: darkrobe on November 01, 2011, 01:54:27 am

Quote from: OldTrees on November 01, 2011, 01:42:22 am

2 -> 5 counters does not seem to warrant -1 casting cost and +1 turn.
I would go 3 turns and cost 5 :gravity|4 :gravity

like a slightly cheaper but almost as good dimensional shield from gravity.

just for comparison sake. what do you think the cost should be if I kept it at 4 turns?

Title: Re: Holtzman Shield | Holtzman Shield
Post by: OldTrees on November 01, 2011, 01:56:03 am

Quote from: darkrobe on November 01, 2011, 01:54:27 am

Quote from: OldTrees on November 01, 2011, 01:42:22 am

2 -> 5 counters does not seem to warrant -1 casting cost and +1 turn.
I would go 3 turns and cost 5 :gravity|4 :gravity

like a slightly cheaper but almost as good dimensional shield from gravity.

just for comparison sake. what do you think the cost should be if I kept it at 4 turns?

Rougher guess of 8 :gravity|7 :gravity

Title: Re: Holtzman Shield | Holtzman Shield
Post by: darkrobe on November 01, 2011, 02:21:08 am

Quote from: Naesala on November 01, 2011, 01:53:46 am

Ah, hadn't payed attention to the quanta cost he put. 5|4 for 3 sounds fair. otherwise...hm, 7|6 for 4 turns? meh, whatever.

Quote from: OldTrees on November 01, 2011, 01:56:03 am

Rougher guess of 8 :gravity|7 :gravity

Split the difference? 8 :gravity | 6 :gravity

I want to differentiate it from dimensional shield, but also from the current gravity shield. getting up towards 8  :gravity puts it in league with strong permanent shields like upgraded hope and permafrost, which this is not permanent, so it might get to the point of being cost prohibitive. but 6  :gravity is much more manageable and brings it in league with dimensional shield. i think the best cost would actually be something like 7.5  :gravity | 6.5  :gravity so im bankers rounding it to 8 and 6.

Im going to sleep on it.

Title: Re: Holtzman Shield | Holtzman Shield
Post by: RRQJ on November 01, 2011, 03:09:10 am

I personally think this is more powerful than dimensional shield as it is.  Yes, you can list more "counters," but these counters require a player to use them in a way that's not usual, which makes them significantly less viable.  Just think about SoSa.  People list sundial (to stop your own creatures from attacking), antimatter, liquid shadow opponent's creatures, etc. as "counters," but I don't see anyone successfully using them that way.

Another point that I don't like (and part of the reason why this is better than dimensional shield) is momentum being blocked.  Momentum in this game is defined as "ignore shield effects."  This is a shield.  I saw your justification as to why momentum is blocked, but I don't like it.

Title: Re: Holtzman Shield | Holtzman Shield
Post by: Naesala on November 01, 2011, 03:28:42 am

You may as well say you dont like sundial because it stops momentum. it's stopping you from attacking at all is the point. and based on the inspiration of the card (only slow moving things may enter) momentum doesnt make a lot of sense anyways. a momentumed creature may still attack. As for counters and non conventional thinking that leads to deeper strategy. i cant see that arguement being valid until SoSa gets nerfed. In the mean time if pressure i to put it at 3 turns for 5/4 then thats fine.

Darkrobe, I suggest a pole with quanta costs and turns lasting.
8/6 4 turn
7/6 4 turn
5/4 3 turn
other

Title: Re: Holtzman Shield | Holtzman Shield
Post by: oblivion1212 on November 01, 2011, 03:50:46 am

Quote from: Naesala on November 01, 2011, 03:28:42 am

You may as well say you dont like sundial because it stops momentum. it's stopping you from attacking at all is the point. and based on the inspiration of the card (only slow moving things may enter) momentum doesnt make a lot of sense anyways. a momentumed creature may still attack. As for counters and non conventional thinking that leads to deeper strategy. i cant see that arguement being valid until SoSa gets nerfed. In the mean time if pressure i to put it at 3 turns for 5/4 then thats fine.

Darkrobe, I suggest a pole with quanta costs and turns lasting.
8/6 4 turn
7/6 4 turn
5/4 3 turn
other

i think he means because sundial isn't a shield, momentum can't go through it, but this shield stops momentum: "ignore shield effects"

maybe turn it into a perm to make it affect momentum'ed creatures?

Title: Re: Holtzman Shield | Holtzman Shield
Post by: darkrobe on November 01, 2011, 03:50:59 am

Quote from: Naesala on November 01, 2011, 03:28:42 am

You may as well say you dont like sundial because it stops momentum. it's stopping you from attacking at all is the point. and based on the inspiration of the card (only slow moving things may enter) momentum doesnt make a lot of sense anyways. a momentumed creature may still attack. As for counters and non conventional thinking that leads to deeper strategy. i cant see that arguement being valid until SoSa gets nerfed. In the mean time if pressure i to put it at 3 turns for 5/4 then thats fine.

Darkrobe, I suggest a pole with quanta costs and turns lasting.
8/6 4 turn
7/6 4 turn
5/4 3 turn
other

I was sortof thinking that. when in doubt have a poll.  ;D

but im not sure if that is enough options. I was thinking another possibility is to have it act like a generator, and have it be permanent but absorb  :gravity  :gravity per turn (similar to flooding). gravity is a pretty expensive element and this might be one way to to both make it both more balanced and seperate it from other shields.

on a semi joking side note. holtzman shields are supposed to explode in a nuclear explosion when targeted with a lasgun. we could have the shield explode and damage both players if hit with momentum. (the what happens when an unstoppaple object crashes into an immovable object phenomenon. ) just because momentum ignores shields doesnt mean the shield has to ignore momentum.

Title: Re: Holtzman Shield | Holtzman Shield
Post by: OldTrees on November 01, 2011, 04:05:27 am

Momentum'ed creatures ignore shield effects. Let's be consistent and continue this trend.

Title: Re: Holtzman Shield | Holtzman Shield
Post by: darkrobe on November 01, 2011, 01:19:35 pm

Polls have been added.

Title: Re: Holtzman Shield | Holtzman Shield
Post by: Naesala on November 14, 2011, 04:03:26 am

Bumpity bump bump.

Title: Re: Holtzman Shield | Holtzman Shield
Post by: darkrobe on November 14, 2011, 04:06:50 am

Quote from: Naesala on November 14, 2011, 04:03:26 am

Bumpity bump bump.

Im guessing you would like this to be finished. lol

For the record. Still looking for a non-copyright threatening name. And im still not quite satisfied with the card in terms of whether how many turns it should last and cost.