HERO CARDS by Scaredgirl

[oaky180]

I really do love your ideas, but they need a ton of work.
Sure they are unbalanced, I mean Tree of life vs. Vampire lord. I wonder who would win there? lol
Also, I would like to keep away from copyrighted names, like the Joker. But the idea is awesome. The clockmaker seems ridiculously over powered since the opponent gets such few turns.

Fix the imbalances and I think that this could work.

Btw, I suggested and idea for leveling up, it was not a requirement for having heroes. I just thought that it would make the game a bit take longer to get a strong hero.

[Scaredgirl]

I really do love your ideas, but they need a ton of work.
Sure they are unbalanced, I mean Tree of life vs. Vampire lord. I wonder who would win there? lol
Also, I would like to keep away from copyrighted names, like the Joker. But the idea is awesome. The clockmaker seems ridiculously over powered since the opponent gets such few turns.

Fix the imbalances and I think that this could work.

Btw, I suggested and idea for leveling up, it was not a requirement for having heroes. I just thought that it would make the game a bit take longer to get a strong hero.

You know this is not a game where Heroes battle it out in an arena 1vs1. And you cannot balance a card game like this one with 1vs1 balance. That would be a horrible idea.

Most of these Heroes are SUPPORTIVE characters which means that they mostly help your other characters to kill your opponent. Lets take your Tree of Life vs. Vampire Lord as an example. If they fought 1vs1, Vampire Lord would win. But like I said this is not 1vs1 game. In real game, what if they had other characters with them? What if Tree of Life kept all those other characters alive long enough to kill your opponent? The 1vs1 skills of Vampire Lord would mean nothing in this situation.

I think leveling up characters would be a really bad idea. That would only widen the gap between casual players and "no-lifers". Like any good CCG, this game should be about...
1. Deck building skills
2. Knowing what card to play and when

This game should be about who is the BEST PLAYER, not about who spent the MOST TIME farming False Gods. It's already bad enough with half the players having upgraded cards and half non-upgraded. What if I had some level 20 super card that takes months to grind and my opponent didn't? It would be a slaughter, which is too easy and boring.

Any kind of system where you have to grind hours and hours to level up a character is old-fashioned PvE crap that shouldn't be a part of today's games. Nobody likes grinding so why on earth do we still have it?

But yeah, these ideas need balancing. It's just that it's really difficult without actually playing with these characters. What seem weak on paper, might turn out the be totally overpowered, and vice versa.

[Evil Hamster]

I really do love your ideas, but they need a ton of work.
Sure they are unbalanced, I mean Tree of life vs. Vampire lord. I wonder who would win there? lol
Also, I would like to keep away from copyrighted names, like the Joker. But the idea is awesome. The clockmaker seems ridiculously over powered since the opponent gets such few turns.

Fix the imbalances and I think that this could work.

Btw, I suggested and idea for leveling up, it was not a requirement for having heroes. I just thought that it would make the game a bit take longer to get a strong hero.

Zombie King would demolish tree of life. Eventually...

[Uncle Jellyfish]

Yeah, Wyrm Queen IS kinda boring. I had real trouble trying to come up with something fun for Air. Most elements clearly have something "they are about", but I just didn't see that with Air. Something that flies is an obvious choice but since flying doesn't mean anything in this game.. what can you do? I don't know about adding momentum because it's Gravitys bread and butter.

Dive? o-o

[Kumlekar]

Again I invite you to post something constructive, perhaps about balance changes?  That Immortal King card really needs to be ironed out, but I don't know how.

Really? Out of all those cards you think Immortal King- arguably the weakest with the weakest effect- needs to be fixed?

I've always had a problem with uncounterable cards.  That card not only has an ability with 2 more damage than any other reusable ability of the same type in this game, but also cannot be targeted.  If this were magic it wouldn't be as much of a problem because of blocking and counterspells, but in elements its stupidly good.  It can take out the majority of creatures in one turn, and most others in 2.  In addition only allowing one of them on the table (a good idea) becomes a problem if there is no way to remove the opponents so you can play yours.  Any of the other cards suggested have obvious weaknesses, this one doesn't have any other than a slightly weaker effect (that is still pretty damn powerful).  Perhaps if that card had 15-25 toughness and no immortality it might be more balanced.  Hell the effect could deal more damage with that.  (maybe even up to 10 damage peer cast?)

I see no other way than to make Aether Hero immaterial. Immortals are immaterial, Dragons are immaterial, how could the KING not be immaterial?

If the immaterial thing is too much, just make him less powerful. Problem solved.

Or how about this: when he uses his ability he becomes targetable for one turn? Hm.. I don't know..

I really like that idea of making him targetable after using his ability.  His attack power is high but not ridiculous, so someone not using the ability is just getting the effect of a reasonably powerful creature for three times the mana cost, on the flip side using his ability would be a more effective, but more counter-able use of the card.  From a programming standpoint, a modification of the burrowing code should allow this fairly easily. 

Yeah, Wyrm Queen IS kinda boring. I had real trouble trying to come up with something fun for Air. Most elements clearly have something "they are about", but I just didn't see that with Air. Something that flies is an obvious choice but since flying doesn't mean anything in this game.. what can you do? I don't know about adding momentum because it's Gravitys bread and butter.

Dive? o-o

Good point, maybe somethign like:
Uses dive on all your creatures for 10 quantums, 1 turn downtime, stacks with other creatures using dive.

Like I said earlier, very good feedback. I can see you have played CCG's before

Its kinda funny you say, that, I had to look up what CCG stood for when typing this.  I've played magic and legend of the five rings.  To be honest most card games annoy me because of a lack of balance, and being someone interested in making competitve video games, game balance is a major interest of mine.

I totally agree with lowering attack for most of these cards. They are powerful even without high attack (although I would like to see 1 of them with relatively high attack and a bit weaker ability).

I'm not sure about improving their HP. In my experience if a creature has 20+ HP it's almost impossible to kill. Unless you have Eagle's Eye, Gravity Pull or a bunch of direct attack spells you probably won't be able to kill it. But it's difficult to say what would be a good balance. These kinds of things need testing.

I guess my opinion of health in this game is a bit skewed, I'm assuming these cards would be available till the tenth turn or later just because of quantum cost alone, and the fact that their abilities are to expensive to be using regularly before then.  I play a mono-dark deck, so my counter to most of these cards would be drain life, which I could probaby deal 10 damage with by that point.  I don't think its good if any of these cards die in two hits, but at the same time some decks might have a problem with that much health. (especially ones that use parallel universe, infection, or reign of fire as their creature control)

What you said about the Clockmaker is a great idea and I don't understand why I didn't even consider it. If time bubble lasted for 2 turns, it would be much better. That would mean that if you use it every time, you would get 3 turns when your opponent only gets 2, which sounds pretty good to me.

I think if Demon from the Depths could freeze 3 characters every turn if would be WAY too powerful. Think about it. If the opponent had 9 characters on the table, that would mean in 3 turns they would all be frozen, and as soon as they unfreeze, they would be frozen again. I hate random thing too but that's how Ice Bolts and that Water Shield work in this game so I don't see that as a big deal.

Probably true, but randomization needs to be avoided, maybe a 6 turn freeze on one creature? Thats a pretty significant lockdown.

[Evil Hamster]

Probably true, but randomization needs to be avoided, maybe a 6 turn freeze on one creature? Thats a pretty significant lockdown.

Randomization is a big part of this game- and the only real advantage a computer game has over a "real" card game.

[Kumlekar]

Whenever i'm talking about balance I'm thinking of pvp first, pve second.  let me put this in prespective, a 20% chance is pretty low, making it mainly effective against FFQ and graveyard decks.  If that card is played against a big creature deck, the opponents entire attacking force could be taken out on a whim, or the card could be completely inneffective.  It really sucks for both players with chances like that, and in any serious game either player can say that the other player, "just got lucky" and bve entirely correct.  Its true elements has alot of randomization; all card games do, but unlike most, elements has provided many tools to keep randomization to the minimum: smaller decks, higher numbers of duplicates, and extremely powerful card drawing abilities.  Just because there is randomization in the game, it doesn't mean it whould be encouraged.  If we want a game that can be competitive the ideal amount is an absolute minimum. 

[Scaredgirl]

I really like that idea of making him targetable after using his ability.  His attack power is high but not ridiculous, so someone not using the ability is just getting the effect of a reasonably powerful creature for three times the mana cost, on the flip side using his ability would be a more effective, but more counter-able use of the card.  From a programming standpoint, a modification of the burrowing code should allow this fairly easily. 

Yep, that could work.

Good point, maybe somethign like:
Uses dive on all your creatures for 10 quantums, 1 turn downtime, stacks with other creatures using dive.

I thought about that first. Problem is, how can you give "Dive" to land creatures? What do they do, jump on you?

There should be "Flying" ability like in MtG but in this game it could mean that land creatures cannot target "Flying" creatures (you can still target them with spells). If we had, it would make sense to have a Hero that gives "Dive" to all you "Flying" creatures.

I guess my opinion of health in this game is a bit skewed, I'm assuming these cards would be available till the tenth turn or later just because of quantum cost alone, and the fact that their abilities are to expensive to be using regularly before then.  I play a mono-dark deck, so my counter to most of these cards would be drain life, which I could probaby deal 10 damage with by that point.  I don't think its good if any of these cards die in two hits, but at the same time some decks might have a problem with that much health. (especially ones that use parallel universe, infection, or reign of fire as their creature control)

Yeah, it's very difficult to say how much HP would be optimal without testing it first.

Even more difficult are cards like Mutate. Does it work against Heroes? Because if it does, you could basically "kill" a Hero with one very cheap card.

Should Heroes be "Immune" to spells? If they were, killing them would be difficult so you have to lower HP. But if you lower HP, are Heroes too easy to kill with characters/Eagle's Eye?.

These are all good questions that need answers.

Probably true, but randomization needs to be avoided, maybe a 6 turn freeze on one creature? Thats a pretty significant lockdown.

I don't know.. 6 turn Freeze just sounds like an improved version of Congeal. I'd like to see all Heroes have "massive" abilities and improved Congeal doesn't sound that exiting to me.

But you are right about randomization, it really sucks. Cards games are too much about luck even without having cards that encourage that. I just don't see any other way of doing mass freeze, which would be pretty cool imo.

Now that I think about it.. this water Demon would basically do almost the same thing as Ice Shield does. Maybe this Ice Rain could also do some damage or something..

[Kumlekar]

The other option might be 100% freeze for 1 turn with 1 turn cooldown.

If you have the air hero be some sort of mage, theres no reason we can't assume all the creatures are gaining flying.  As for a "Flying" type ability, mabye the creatures are immune to other creature effects and weapons, but not spells?

[Scaredgirl]

The other option might be 100% freeze for 1 turn with 1 turn cooldown.

That's definitely an option. I just wanted to give these Heroes improved versions of cards already in use. If it lasted only 1 turn, it would be a very lame version of Freeze. Heroes should have "bigger" abilities imo.

If you have the air hero be some sort of mage, theres no reason we can't assume all the creatures are gaining flying.  As for a "Flying" type ability, mabye the creatures are immune to other creature effects and weapons, but not spells?

Yeah, I suggested something like that in this thread: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,456.msg4145#msg4145 (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,456.msg4145#msg4145)

[Kumlekar]

You mentioned making heros immune to spells.  The problem that I see with giving them any complete immunities is that many decks depend on either spells or creature or weapon abilites exclusively.  These cards are extremely powerful, so there has to be a variety of counters.  I'm just gonna make a list of anti-creature cards I can think of and how various defenses could protect heros from the most powerful while no negating the weaker ones.

Spells:
Without any protections the three biggest abusable threats to heros are fire bolt, ice bolt and drain life.  The best spell counter outside of those is gravity pull.  Plague, lightning and mutation might be usable counters that should not be discouraged.  Rain of Fire should be close to negilible.  Chaos seed I don't know enough about the possible effects to think about.  Mutation I'm also not sure about.

Weapons:
Owl's Eye is the obvious.  The problem with the card is that its offensive power is the same as Rain of Fire's, but it is reusable.
Labotmizer - Completely over powered against heros.  This equates to an instant kill.
Eternity - I'm not quite sure about this one.  Doesn't kill the hero, but still is pretty damn powerful if the player is paying 20 mana per turn compared to the opponent's 3.

Creatures:
Maxwell's Demon - This should never be able to kill a hero at all.  Insta-kill effects stuck
Fallen Elf - Not really sure.  I don't like instant kills, but it does have a randomization on it.
Virus - Should be an effective card
Otyugh - Devour should be effective.  If an otyugh has gotten that big, the other player deserves to lose.
Chrysoara - +1 infect per turn is pretty powerful, but should definatly be a viable counter.
Toadfish - See Chrysoara
Mind Flayer - Ridiculously overpowered versus heros
Parasite - See Toadfish

Shields:  (only listing ones that prevent abilities from being used, attack power penalties aren't the issue)
Procrastination
Ice Shield

Because of the number of balanced and overpowered counters in each category, I don't think making them completely immume to one type is a good idea. 
The cards I am worried about are:
Fire Bolt
Ice Bolt
Drain Life
Mutation
Labotomizer
Eternity
Maxwell's Demon (easily handled by giving the majority of heros low attack power)
Fallen Elf

The Hero specific defenses I can think of are:
Immunities - I don't like blanket immunties, but specifically targeted ones might work
Damage Caps - Either total amount of damage per turn or number of times the creature can be targeted per turn (not 0)

The best thing I've come up with is only allowing Heros to be targeted by direct damage abilities and specific effects including freeze, infection, time bubble, gravity pull, and maybe reverse time (not too sure about it).  On top of this a direct damage cap of somewhere between 8 and 12 damage per turn would be fairly effective.  This assumes most heros have health in the 15-25 range.  Status effects would circumvent this cap.  This would mean that any hero would have at least one turn on the board unless the opponent could apply either gravity pull, or 5 infections + 10 direct damage.

What I'm really questioning is if it should be possible to buff heros or not.  The immortal king would be come very fun to play with buff cards, but other heros might lend themselves to overpowered combinations.

[Uncle Jellyfish]

Chrysoara - +1 infect per turn is pretty powerful, but should definatly be a viable counter.
Toadfish - See Chrysoara

Chrysoara doesn't infect. It poisons the player directly. Toadfish only infects a creature if it's unupgraded, otherwise it has Venom, which is the same ability and Arsenic.