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Masterfurry

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Help Me So | Help Me Not https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24597.msg313406#msg313406
« on: April 17, 2011, 02:28:16 am »
NAME:
Help Me Not
ELEMENT:
Life
COST:
4 :life
TYPE:
Permanent
ATK|HP:
TEXT:
Last 3 turns. Your turn, creatures you control gain 0|+1. Opponent turn, creatures he control gain -1|0.
NAME:
Help Me Not
ELEMENT:
Fire
COST:
6 :fire
TYPE:
Permanent
ATK|HP:
TEXT:
Last 3 turns. Your turn, creatures you control gain +1|0. Opponent turn, creatures he control gain 0|-1.
ART:
EmeraldTiger
IDEA:
Masterfurry & EmeraldTiger
NOTES:
After the 3 turns, or if the card is destroyed, the stats of the creatures go back to normal. (Ex: A Voodoo Doll with 0/20 on your side of the field now has the stats 3/20 and the stats of all creatures return to normal) Also what you can do is use a Help Me So/Not for the 3 turns and before the 3rd turn is up use another one and then the stats of the creatures keep going like the Help Me So/Not had more than 3 turns (if that makes sense). This IS stackable This was an Idea I, Masterfurry, had and EmeraldTiger then improved it a little bit and then johannhowitzer improved it a little more and OldTrees improved it a little more and this is the final draft of it.
SERIES:

Re: Help Me So | Help Me Not https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24597.msg313409#msg313409
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2011, 02:30:08 am »
This was an Idea I, Masterfurry, had...
lol, I love the tone used here, very dramatic

I like the idea, but poor phoenixes..

also, does attack go down to negative?

Masterfurry

  • Guest
Re: Help Me So | Help Me Not https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24597.msg313411#msg313411
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2011, 02:32:19 am »
I guess it would. Thus giving me HP! Thanks! I didnt even notice that! Ok i edited it, thanks very much.

Masterfurry

  • Guest
Re: Help Me So | Help Me Not https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24597.msg313419#msg313419
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2011, 02:40:40 am »
Poor phoenixes?

Re: Help Me So | Help Me Not https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24597.msg313426#msg313426
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2011, 02:44:14 am »
Poor phoenixes?
phoenixes have 1 hp... and they happen to be my favorite creature

Masterfurry

  • Guest
Re: Help Me So | Help Me Not https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24597.msg313430#msg313430
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2011, 02:48:00 am »
Poor phoenixes?
phoenixes have 1 hp... and they happen to be my favorite creature
Oh, gotcha xD, then use blessings on it. Or turn it back from Ash to Pheonix so it doesnt die.

Re: Help Me So | Help Me Not https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24597.msg313434#msg313434
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2011, 02:52:09 am »
It takes a lot for me to bring out the OP-hammer, but this is one of those times.  Compare this permanent to Nightfall, which grants +1|+1 once only, unstackable, not harmful to enemy creatures, restricted to two elements, and may be destroyed to reverse the effect.  Despite the higher one-time cost, this continues to work for free, is significantly more powerful than Nightfall and Fire Buckler combined, has no upkeep (I don't think upkeep would balance it, though), and the effect isn't reversed if the permanent is destroyed.

This shows its extreme power when you place it against just about any deck type except a sudden killer.  For example, say you face a mono-Gravity foe, whose creatures command large amounts of HP... enemy Otyughs would immediately begin to heal you, and never be able to recover from that; Massive Dragons would fall to zero attack in four turns, despite remaining alive; everything else would be debilitated quickly enough.  Fire opponents would lose all their creatures rapidly, which wouldn't be impressive in light of Fire Buckler's similar effect if this didn't also ignore Momentum.  Middle of the road would be Earth, with balanced creatures... even a Basalt Dragon, 10|12 to start, falls to 8|10, then 6|8, then 4|6 (Antlion strength), then 2|4, and then gone.

Even the unupped version isn't a good idea, I'm afraid.

Masterfurry

  • Guest
Re: Help Me So | Help Me Not https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24597.msg313447#msg313447
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2011, 03:00:54 am »
Ok, then I guess i culd make it wear everything goes back to normal after the 8 turns..

Card EDITED

Re: Help Me So | Help Me Not https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24597.msg313451#msg313451
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2011, 03:04:27 am »
Perhaps, but remember: not only can these be easily chained for an entire 23-turn game, but they cause a shift in the balance of power of 1-unupped, 2-upped, per creature each side.  If you have three creatures on each side, that is a shift of 6-unupped, 12-upped, which is actually more powerful than casting Animatter on a medium-size creature, and unlike Antimatter it continues to grow unheeded.  Eight turns is a very long time, especially when you couple it with (in the case of Help Me Not) Death's penchant for creating massive critter-armies, the stalling abilities of Bone Wall, etc.

Masterfurry

  • Guest
Re: Help Me So | Help Me Not https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24597.msg313452#msg313452
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2011, 03:06:27 am »
Perhaps, but remember: not only can these be easily chained for an entire 23-turn game, but they cause a shift in the balance of power of 1-unupped, 2-upped, per creature each side.  If you have three creatures on each side, that is a shift of 6-unupped, 12-upped, which is actually more powerful than casting Animatter on a medium-size creature, and unlike Antimatter it continues to grow unheeded.  Eight turns is a very long time, especially when you couple it with (in the case of Help Me Not) Death's penchant for creating massive critter-armies, the stalling abilities of Bone Wall, etc.
Six good? or 5?

Masterfurry

  • Guest
Re: Help Me So | Help Me Not https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24597.msg313455#msg313455
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2011, 03:09:43 am »
Also it is not like Antimatter because Antimatter can always stay at  -5 but with this card it goes back to normal like the card was never played.
Well I am going to keep it the way it is. Cards are suppose to help YOU and I am sure that I am not going to be the only one using the card. If another person has it then it will be a Help Me Not and Help Me So battle xD

Re: Help Me So | Help Me Not https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=24597.msg313467#msg313467
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2011, 03:29:15 am »
I think I should probably put a little more math in this topic, since with the reversal we're getting into the land of averages...

Let's say you have three Elite Cockatrices on the field, since this is a Life card unupped... I'll leave off the upped version for now, since showing the unupped to be too powerful is sufficient.  Your opponent is running a balanced Gravity deck, which I picked since killing a creature would be irreversible (what if he played a new creature in the same slot).

Before playing Help Me So:
You have 5|5, 5|5, 5|5, he has 8|30, 8|30, 8|30 (three Massive Dragons).  This is a total of 15 attack for you and 24 attack for him, the HP is irrelevant for now, since the dragons will not die in your suggested five turns (-10 HP).

Each turn there is a shift of +3 attack for you, -3 attack for him, and the cumulative damage added/reduced is as follows:
Turn 1 = +3 / -3
Turn 2 = +9 / -9 (that is 3+6)
Turn 3 = +18 / -18 (that is 3+6+9)
Turn 4 = +30 / -30 (that is 3+6+9+12)
Turn 5 = +45 / -45 (that is 3+6+9+12+15)

Every five turns, friendly creatures will have an average of (3+15)/2 = +9 attack boost, while enemy creatures will have an average of -9.  The turns they spend at extremes of this spectrum make up for each other.

For the price of one permanent and 5 :life, you will deal 45 more damage than you would have otherwise, while your opponent will have damaged you for 45 less than if you had not played the card.  This is mono-element and over twice as strong as Unstable Gas, though its effects happen over several turns; one might argue that Dimensional Shield can block a full army of much greater than 45 attack power, but Dimensional Shield...

1. requires a duo deck to create synergy with Empathic Bond,
2. is vulnerable to Momentum,
3. does not increase your creatures' stats, and
4. may be stolen for a turn or two of the same effect, rather than somewhat mitigating the effects already suffered, as this card does.

If you ask me (which I'm honored that you seem to be, and I don't mean to criticize destructively, but constructively), this card is trying to do too much at once.  Here's a suggestion: make both cards Life, lower their cost a little, and have them affect only friendly creatures' HP and enemy creatures' attack - a haven, if you will, not an offensive card but a defensive one.  The effects would still need to be reversed in short order (somewhere from 2-4 turns, I think, my instinct is telling me 3 is nice and round), because reducing an army's attack permanently is a bit too strong.  0|+1 friendly and -1|0 enemy is probably best for both versions, the upped just would have a lower cost.

This change will fit Life's theme very well: it likes fragile creatures, so protecting them a little is a nice temporary buff, and reducing enemies' attack sounds a lot like you're trapping them in roots or something.

 

anything
blarg: