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Offline chrispybacon84

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Re: Fountain of Youth | Fountain of Youth https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60345.msg1213572#msg1213572
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2015, 12:48:09 am »
Personally I agree with mathman. Aether is the major element with immateral. 1  :aether per turn sounds good, nice idea mathman

In that case, seraph should be the same.
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Offline mathman101

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Re: Fountain of Youth | Fountain of Youth https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60345.msg1213582#msg1213582
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2015, 01:57:38 am »
I don't think it's overpowered. Can you explain exactly why you see it that way?

Life is an element with many ways to heal and aim for stalls, (Ebonds, Heal, SoG, Druidic Staff). in a mono deck you could pack heals, SoGs, and Fountain of Youths for healing. If you managed to get 6 Fountains and 6 SoGs out that adds up to over 40hp healing per turn, now add in a Staff and a shield can bump up the healing and reduce damage taken.
Now imagine it in a SoD Miracle duo, extra sancs create extra healing and could render all damage useless.


Regarding the ability use, :aether was just the first I thought of when I saw immaterial. But I could also see it being :time, as the fountain lets you live forever (immortality), a thing of altering time and draw power of the cards late game.
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Offline chrispybacon84

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Re: Fountain of Youth | Fountain of Youth https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60345.msg1213594#msg1213594
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2015, 04:30:30 am »

Regarding the ability use, :aether was just the first I thought of when I saw immaterial. But I could also see it being :time, as the fountain lets you live forever (immortality), a thing of altering time and draw power of the cards late game.

Mabye there can be a thing where it alternates between :time and :aether per use?
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Offline LinkcatTopic starter

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Re: Fountain of Youth | Fountain of Youth https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60345.msg1213604#msg1213604
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2015, 06:54:46 am »
Mathman, you can already do that without the Fountain. The heal is small, so it doesn't really help you stall easier. It just lets you play that deck with 30 cards.
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Re: Fountain of Youth | Fountain of Youth https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60345.msg1213606#msg1213606
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2015, 08:48:21 am »
Similar stalling power can be achieved by most stalls. Immortal can reach 500 HP and heal 24 each turn, but it's the setup which matters. Immortal is considered one of the weaker stalls due to how hard it is to achieve that setup. So no, this isn't op.

If you did remove immortality, it'd need to be costed much lower to be decent. Maybe have temporary immortality, if it's too much? Current version seems fine tbh, since 2 heal at 7 quanta is not really enough to stall the game longer.
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Offline LinkcatTopic starter

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Re: Fountain of Youth | Fountain of Youth https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60345.msg1216837#msg1216837
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2015, 01:26:01 am »
I have modified this card based on feedback from several people.
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Offline chrispybacon84

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Re: Fountain of Youth | Fountain of Youth https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60345.msg1216906#msg1216906
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2015, 05:54:33 am »
I have modified this card based on feedback from several people.

IMO, still OP in some cases. An immaterial skill cost would be the perfect addition (Seraph like) with  :aether or  :time as cost per turn
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Offline Flayne

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Re: Fountain of Youth | Fountain of Youth https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60345.msg1216919#msg1216919
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2015, 02:37:13 pm »
 I don't think it needs immateriality at all.

Though you have options, there's no need to over complicate the issue:

1: If you keep immateriality the card will have to cost more making it costly for a situational effect and thereby making it less attractive, plus in most cases element locked to :life.

2: Making it able to activate one turn immateriality with a cost (seraph) might be better but it will not do much to change the cost
and also require off elements (presumably since mono requirement is just almost pointless), it would need   :aether:light, or  :time  in that order of preference
to the games current logic.

3: Upon removing immateriality it justifies a significantly lower cost to make it more efficient and usable in duos, trios, etc. \
not just :life.
Otherwise, the card is limited and almost offers nothing new besides the anti-deck out

If the conditions aren't met it's just another SoG but immaterial, more expensive and limited to only one

All you need is Nova and PA (upped) and this cards desired immateriality is set (and that is only 1 off the mill example for PA, also salvager can be used with it.)
along with being able to PA or salvage other important permanents like Bond, druidic staff or SoG if you dont have fountain in hand, it is more feasible that way.

Otherwise as I see it, it is too situational for too high a cost, on top of being limited to only one which means having more than one in the deck will simply waste card space since it would be immaterial to begin with anyway when you draw and play one.



« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 12:07:40 am by Flayne »
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Re: Fountain of Youth | Fountain of Youth https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60345.msg1216930#msg1216930
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2015, 10:57:04 pm »
It's intended to be used in a stall.
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Re: Fountain of Youth | Fountain of Youth https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60345.msg1216943#msg1216943
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2015, 12:39:40 am »
It's intended to be used in a stall.

Right...I admit I made a logical and contradictory mistake with my first sentence. (I edited my post)
However, the rest of my point still stands.


Why does it have to be immaterial?

As I see it making it immaterial both solves but creates a problem.

Problem solved: If it is not immaterial, then having zero cards left, if the opponent PCs it, you instantly lose the game despite your current HP ( I assume this is the case)
to prevent this, it must be immaterial. (since there can only be one on field)

Problem created: If it is immaterial, you have zero cards left yet if you're out-healing the maximum damage output of your opponent, then essentially its an auto-win if your opponent lacks PC for SoGs or empathic bond, staff etc. and/or mass CC if you're using empathic bond with mitosis + cheap creature. The opponent ultimately ends up decking out. (which is the desired effect obviously but the potential lack of counter play is somewhat problematic)

On top of that, if your opponent is also using a stall, yet lacks this card in their deck, you have effectively out stalled your opponent, almost effortlessly, causing them to deck out first no matter what they do.

However, as my previous post implies, One cannot assume that you are always going to set this up perfectly and survive even before you reach zero cards and having this card on field.

That said, the instant immateriality of the card and its condition of having one only on field creates another problem which I have already stated.

Problem created 2:
If you have one of these on field, then any other within your deck be it 1 or 5 more (6 max) will effectively delay your deck by wasting card space.
So one can assume that you can't really have more than 2, MAX 3 to minimize the inevitable delaying effect it will have.


Solution:

To avoid both problems it creates, I propose removing immateriality AND the condition of having one only allowed.

why?

First, Immateriality is already very possible with PA.
That said, the need of PA makes the setup only slightly more difficult while giving at least some counter play for the kinds of scenarios mentioned previously.
Also, having PA can easily benefit a :life deck using fountain, if you don't have fountain, then start PAing Staff or SoG (or empathic bond or something)

Secondly/ alternatively, IF you don't want to use PA, then all you have to do is be able to have multiple on field.
The cost of 7 :life in this case makes this somewhat balanced as I mentioned that besides the anti-deck out, it is also a more expensive SoG, which is fine in this case.

Since immateriality is removed, it can also be somewhat slightly cheaper (upgraded?) so that it does not have to be locked in :life and can offer its effects to other elements, thereby satisfying a broader player base within the game.

As it stands right now, I feel as though the idea is good but is somewhat problematic.

but, its up to you. just my 5 cents.








« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 12:57:41 am by Flayne »
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Re: Fountain of Youth | Fountain of Youth https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60345.msg1216944#msg1216944
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2015, 12:57:51 am »
For the first problem, if all of those conditions are met, then you are supposed to win. Based on feedback from experienced PVPers, I don't think this is overpowered.
The second problem is not a problem.

The immateriality and uniqueness are part of the theme of The Fountain of Youth and won't be changed.
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