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Offline SnoWeb

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Re: Druid's Pillar | Druid's Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28062.msg359091#msg359091
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2011, 07:20:34 am »
How do you create four types of quantum producer which produce 2 quanta out of 6 in maximizing the versatility? you create two couples of opposite arrangement which have 3 commune elements with each non-partner.
Thanks SnoWeb. You have started the case/discussion. How many possible sets of 4 are we left with and how do we chose which of those maximizes versatility of the set?
If we start from a fixed pick - the one that justifies itself the most: physical ( :fire :water :earth :air :life :death) vs metaphysical ( :aether :time :gravity :entropy :light :darkness) and we apply the rules I proposed above: (a) each new group needs to have 3 commune elements with the each of the physical and metaphysical group and (b) separate the opposing elements we obtain the following 32 combinations for the second couple:
    :entropy :death :darkness :water :aether :air vs :gravity :life :light :fire :time :earth => Fits also as Winter|Summer and looks better with the colors :entropy :death :darkness :water :aether :earth vs :gravity :life :light :fire :time :air :entropy :death :darkness :water :time :air vs :gravity :life :light :fire :aether :earth => Winter|Summer by SnoWeb :entropy :death :darkness :water :time :earth vs :gravity :life :light :fire :aether :air :entropy :death :darkness :fire :aether :air vs :gravity :life :light :water :time :earth :entropy :death :darkness :fire :aether :earth vs :gravity :life :light :water :time :air => Unholy|Holy by Chromatophore :entropy :death :darkness :fire :time :air vs :gravity :life :light :water :aether :earth :entropy :death :darkness :fire :time :earth vs :gravity :life :light :water :aether :air :entropy :death :light :water :aether :air vs :gravity :life :darkness :fire :time :earth :entropy :death :light :water :aether :earth vs :gravity :life :darkness :fire :time :air :entropy :death :light :water :time :air vs :gravity :life :darkness :fire :aether :earth :entropy :death :light :water :time :earth vs :gravity :life :darkness :fire :aether :air :entropy :death :light :fire :aether :air vs :gravity :life :darkness :water :time :earth :entropy :death :light :fire :aether :earth vs :gravity :life :darkness :water :time :air :entropy :death :light :fire :time :air vs :gravity :life :darkness :water :aether :earth :entropy :death :light :fire :time :earth vs :gravity :life :darkness :water :aether :air :entropy :life :darkness :water :aether :air vs :gravity :death :light :fire :time :earth :entropy :life :darkness :water :aether :earth vs :gravity :death :light :fire :time :air :entropy :life :darkness :water :time :air vs :gravity :death :light :fire :aether :earth :entropy :life :darkness :water :time :earth vs :gravity :death :light :fire :aether :air :entropy :life :darkness :fire :aether :air vs :gravity :death :light :water :time :earth => Chaos|Order by Chromatophore :entropy :life :darkness :fire :aether :earth vs :gravity :death :light :water :time :air :entropy :life :darkness :fire :time :air vs :gravity :death :light :water :aether :earth :entropy :life :darkness :fire :time :earth vs :gravity :death :light :water :aether :air :entropy :life :light :water :aether :air vs :gravity :death :darkness :fire :time :earth => Vertical split of the quanta pool board in the game :entropy :life :light :water :aether :earth vs :gravity :death :darkness :fire :time :air :entropy :life :light :water :time :air vs :gravity :death :darkness :fire :aether :earth :entropy :life :light :water :time :earth vs :gravity :death :darkness :fire :aether :air :entropy :life :light :fire :aether :air vs :gravity :death :darkness :water :time :earth :entropy :life :light :fire :aether :earth vs :gravity :death :darkness :water :time :air :entropy :life :light :fire :time :air vs :gravity :death :darkness :water :aether :earth :entropy :life :light :fire :time :earth vs :gravity :death :darkness :water :aether :air
We just have to justify why we chose 1 in particular among those 32 using both theme and balance between the different elemental synergies. My favourite one is the 1rst for the moment.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Druid's Pillar | Druid's Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28062.msg359144#msg359144
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2011, 11:16:01 am »
Why start from a fixed pick? That fixed pick can be chosen to maximize versatility too.
The set you describe could be represented as a cycle:
:aether :air :darkness, :death :entropy :fire, :time :earth :light, :life :gravity :water (alphabetical)
:aether :life :water, :gravity :light :earth, :time :death :fire, :entropy :darkness :air (Archetypes http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,14931.12.html)
I count (1)(11)(10)/6 x (9)(8 )(7)/6 = 1540 cycles although that is probably an overestimate again.

What cycle defined by a set of 6 non opposite elements divided into two sets of 3 would create the most versatile and balanced set?
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Re: Druid's Pillar | Druid's Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28062.msg359293#msg359293
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2011, 05:46:48 pm »
Why start from a fixed pick? That fixed pick can be chosen to maximize versatility too.
The set you describe could be represented as a cycle:
:aether :air :darkness, :death :entropy :fire, :time :earth :light, :life :gravity :water (alphabetical)
:aether :life :water, :gravity :light :earth, :time :death :fire, :entropy :darkness :air (Archetypes

http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,14931.12.html)
I count (1)(11)(10)/6 x (9)(8 )(7)/6 = 1540 cycles although that is probably an overestimate again.

What cycle defined by a set of 6 non opposite elements divided into two sets of 3 would create the most versatile and balanced set?
I'm not sure how picking a cycle determines what we are looking for (four 6-element subsets such that each pair of is either disjoint or has exactly 3
elements in common... if i said that right).  Would we take the first six for one, the last six for the second, and alternating choices for the other two? 

So if we start with the cycle  :aether :air :darkness :death :earth :entropy :fire :gravity :life :light :time :water our four sets would be  :aether :air
:darkness :death :earth :entropy|||  :fire :gravity :life :light :time :water|||  :aether :darkness :earth :fire :life :time|||  :air :death :entropy :gravity :light :water ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 ; 7 8 9 10 11 12 ; 1 3 5 7 9 11 ; 2 4 6 8 10 12 ) ? This would also allow for two additional pillars based on the circle of fifths (1 6 11 4 9 2 ; 7 12 5 10 3 8 ), if we were to allow 4-element overlaps.  Or six beyond that if we add in the other cyclic subgroups of Z/12Z (the group of integers modulo 12), although this would create pillars with 5-element overlaps.  Some of these "facts" are unverified and based on extrapolation from example and intuition, so please take with grain of salt.

The number of cycles can be found by considering the number of permutations of the twelve elements and dividing by 12 (there are 12 permutations in each
equivalency class, one for each way we can start the cycle.)  This is a whopping 11! = 39,916,800 possible (distinct) cycles.


If we start with SnoWeb's criterion,
How do you create four types of quantum producer which produce 2 quanta out of 6 in maximizing the versatility? you create two couples of opposite arrangement which have 3 commune elements with each non-partner.
how many possibilities are there?

First we choose one of our subsets of six.  There are 924 possibilities --combinations of 12 taken 6 at a time = 12!/[6!(12-6)!].  The second subset of six
has to include the remaining elements.

The third subset has to have exactly 3 elements in common with the first.  We need to choose 3 out of 6 elements = 6!/[3!(6-3)!] = 20 ways to choose.  And 3
in common with the second subset.  Again 20 ways to choose.  The fourth subset must be the complement of the third.

So there are 924*20*20= 369600 ways to choose our 4 subsets.


We must choose the most versatile, balanced, and symmetric set.  Why?

We must choose a versatile set in order to satisfy our mechanic.  We want to address the difficulty in creating a deck that utilizes a "middle number" of
elements, especially four or five.  If our set lacks in versatility, we may be able to, for example, create decks that utilitze some sets of five elements
but not other 5-element combinations.

We must choose a balanced set to avoid overpowering synergies.  If one of our pillars allows for elements that work especially well together then that pillar
could become overused in the meta-game.

We must choose a symmetric set to maintain the aesthetic of Elements and keep it as pleasing as possible to the mind's eye.  This also makes it easier to
remember which elements are together on a single pillar.


In fact we chose the subsets in this way (SnoWeb's criterion) exactly in order to maximize versatility.  If we define versatility in terms of "If we choose
two of the pillars how can we guarantee the smallest overlap?" then all our choices have equal versatility. The overlap will always be exactly 3 elements. If
we wish to distinguish further among these possibilities based on versatility, we will need a different definition for versatility. Perhaps, "If we choose
two pillars how can we guarantee the largest number of elements will be represented?" or "When choosing 2 pillars how can we maximize the number of 4/5/6/...
element sets that we have available".

To calculate this directly sounds doable but i last studied group theory 11 years ago so i would have to brush up. (Hopefully someone who still studies maths will stroll by :p)  For now i will concentrate on an example:

Example: Chromatophore's groupings :life :death :earth :air :water :fire||| :water :air :time :gravity :light :life and their opposites
First criterion: How many elements can we guarantee are represented when we are allowed to choose two (non-opposite) pillars?  There is a set of four that
does not appear.  :life :death :light darkness.  Every set of three appears.  It seems like this should be easy to prove but i am running out of steam for now.  I'll have to pick up on this later.

Second criterion: If we set out to make a deck using just one of the four types we can account for 4*C(6,4)]=60 out of the 495 possible 4-combinations and 24 of the possible 792 5-combinations.  With two pillar types we can account for more but again i'll have to investigate further at a later time.


A reasonable way to create the most balanced set, would be to examine synergies amongst the elements.  If we can count the synergies between the elements,
then we can choose pillars with roughly equal numbers of synergies amongst their component elements.  Of course this is difficult to count.  If a card
requires two elements to use (like lava golem) then it should be counted.  But what about less obvious synergies (say otyugh/archangel)?  Which synergies do
we count, how do we weight them and where do we draw the line?

Another way we could choose is based on symmetries.  We could insist, for example, that one pair out of our four satisfy the oondition that opposing elements
are kept together while the other pair have opposing elements separated.  (Like in the original proposal and in SnoWeb's list of 32).  This would cut the
number of possiblities down significantly (i haven't calculated how much as of yet).

The question of how do we choose is rarely an easy one but it just as rarely proves unintriguing.  OldTrees and SnoWeb thank you for continuing down this
path of discovery.  I hope we like what we find!  :)

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Druid's Pillar | Druid's Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28062.msg359310#msg359310
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2011, 06:17:06 pm »
A cycle whose first 6 elements follwed Snoweb's criteria (no opposites in the initial pair of 6s) would allow 4 sets of 6 in the manner SnoWeb described
Ex:
Cycle: :aether :life :water :gravity :light :earth :time :death :fire :entropy :darkness :air
Sets:  :aether :life :water :gravity :light :earth, :gravity :light :earth :time :death :fire, :time :death :fire :entropy :darkness :air, :entropy :darkness :air :aether :life :water

Versatility:
We need to maximize internal versatility and synergistic versatility
IV (just using 1 of the 4)
SV (using 2 non opposite of the 4)
SnoWeb's suggestion makes SV produce 2 quanta of the shared trio and 1 quanta of each exterior trio. That is similar to a Pendulum which is good.
However only 4 sets of 3 achieve this regularity.

Which 4 sets of 3 (no overlap occurs) would maximize SV?
What Cycle would maximize the IV of each of the 4 pillars?
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Re: Druid's Pillar | Druid's Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28062.msg359316#msg359316
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2011, 06:23:26 pm »
I think you might be over analyzing it. He designed a pillar that made 2 of 6 elements. I don't think there needs to be an entire book about it. Either the card design is good or it's not. Outside data from another thread about different cards that aren't this card really don't change how well or poorly designed this one is.

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Re: Druid's Pillar | Druid's Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28062.msg359323#msg359323
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2011, 06:39:15 pm »
I think you might be over analyzing it. He designed a pillar that made 2 of 6 elements. I don't think there needs to be an entire book about it. Either the card design is good or it's not. Outside data from another thread about different cards that aren't this card really don't change how well or poorly designed this one is.
He is designing (it is still the Smithy-Crucible) a pillar that makes 2 of 6 elements.
The question is what sets of 6 elements best fit the core mechanic? [Vehicles should fit Riders. & Do not use a suboptimal Vehicle if possible.]
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Offline dracomageat

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Re: Druid's Pillar | Druid's Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28062.msg359343#msg359343
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2011, 07:12:50 pm »
On a different topic, I think "Druidic" would be better than "Druid's" for the card name.

Re: Druid's Pillar | Druid's Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28062.msg359392#msg359392
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2011, 08:29:09 pm »
A cycle whose first 6 elements follwed Snoweb's criteria (no opposites in the initial pair of 6s) would allow 4 sets of 6 in the manner SnoWeb described
Ex:
Cycle: :aether :life :water :gravity :light :earth :time :death :fire :entropy :darkness :air
Sets:  :aether :life :water :gravity :light :earth, :gravity :light :earth :time :death :fire, :time :death :fire :entropy :darkness :air, :entropy :darkness :air :aether :life :water

Versatility:
We need to maximize internal versatility and synergistic versatility
IV (just using 1 of the 4)
SV (using 2 non opposite of the 4)
SnoWeb's suggestion makes SV produce 2 quanta of the shared trio and 1 quanta of each exterior trio. That is similar to a Pendulum which is good.
However only 4 sets of 3 achieve this regularity.

Which 4 sets of 3 (no overlap occurs) would maximize SV?
What Cycle would maximize the IV of each of the 4 pillars?
To continue i think it is prudent to ask/answer a couple questions.

How many pillars in the series (i'll call them semi-rainbow for now, hoping to come up with something better)?
I think 2 - 12 seems right (specifically 2, 4, 6 or 12 in opposing pairs).

What more precisely do we mean by versatility (both for IV and SV)?
I think it is the number of 5 element comboes that can be fielded with one semi-rainbow pillar (IV) or with two nonopposing semi-rainbow pillars (SV) along with enough symmetry that any two sets of two nonopposing semi-rainbow pillar pairs (NOSRPPs) produce the same (or similar?) distribution of quanta (e.g. in Sno's version the distribution is always 111222111 for a NOSRPP (in terms of ratio; they would produce twice that each turn).

Other thoughts on the answers to these questions?

@Uppercut, i think it makes sense to invest the time to make the idea as good as possible even if it means writing a book about it.  Its a fun exercise and if it were to ever be incorporated into EtG i certainly wouldn't want to think i'd made the game worse by not thinking ahead.  If anyone thinks the idea is bad in general then investing the time wouldn't be good, but i don't think anyone has said that (yet).

@dracomageat I don't disagree, but any particular reason why?

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Re: Druid's Pillar | Druid's Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28062.msg359396#msg359396
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2011, 08:36:36 pm »
Not really.
I think it sounds better and none of the other pillars are ___'s.

Re: Druid's Pillar | Druid's Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28062.msg359398#msg359398
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2011, 08:45:33 pm »
Not really.
I think it sounds better and none of the other pillars are ___'s.
Ok i'll change it if we end up keeping that name.

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Re: Druid's Pillar | Druid's Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28062.msg359758#msg359758
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2011, 04:41:07 pm »
ok, my six sense...figure that one out


Please Dont Use Holy UnHoly. Its just too overdone.


ok so I think this should be done fairly arbitrarily, and that almost no consideration to the current card base should be a factor, new cards will get made and it wont matter.


With the idea of 4 pillars, that make two out of six possible, I see a lot of half rainbows.

Are these exclusive?

just to get started::

Druidic  :life :light :earth :air :water
Technic  :gravity :entropy :aether
Arcane   :earth :water :air :fire
Divine  :light :time :aether


Natural  :earth :water :air :fire :life  :death
Technological  :aether  :entropy  :gravity


d20 :)

Arcane
Divine  :light
Incarnum
Primal  :life



old school d&d :D

Abjuration
Necromancy  :death
Enchantment
Illusion  :light  :water
Conjuration
Alteration  :entropy
Divination  :light
Invocation


Mechanically, you would have to base this off the current card library, and I think that is a bad idea.


Theme is fine and as long as things are spread evenly, there should be little problem. Other cards will get made that affect the meta game far more than these will in specific instances.


Re: Druid's Pillar | Druid's Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28062.msg359788#msg359788
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2011, 05:41:32 pm »
Please Dont Use Holy UnHoly. Its just too overdone.
No problem.
Theme is fine and as long as things are spread evenly, there should be little problem.
I'm currently working on how to spread things most evenly.


As far as cycles go, i realized today while i was lurking in chat that there is already one built into the game... the order that the arrow points to the elements when you visit the oracle.   So i was thinking of using that as a jumping off point.

 

anything
blarg: