Poll

What kinds of damage should this shield block

physical only (same as most other shields)
2 (22.2%)
spell damage only
0 (0%)
physical and poison
0 (0%)
spell and poison
1 (11.1%)
physical and spell
2 (22.2%)
Evertyhing (physical spell and poison)
1 (11.1%)
Sorry... cant answer right now... too busy staring at pretty colors.
3 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 9

*Author

Offline iskelion

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 269
  • Reputation Power: 5
  • iskelion is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • Iskelion
Re: Dispersive Ward | Entropic Aegis https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=52701.msg1113275#msg1113275
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2013, 05:45:06 pm »
i think you got an edition error (the upper cost more and produces 1 less quanta while reducing the same amount of damage)

in any case, i think making the unnuped cost 4 would make it ok
and ill have to wait to see what you make of the upped one

i like the concept, it just needs a little balance
first play this, then dispersion field  :P

Offline OdinVanguardTopic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4984
  • Reputation Power: 67
  • OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.
  • Keeping The Jotnar at bay
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 4th Birthday Cake
Re: Dispersive Ward | Entropic Aegis https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=52701.msg1113290#msg1113290
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2013, 06:40:24 pm »
Okay, made the unupped 4 :entropy and upped now reduces 0 to 4 damage.

Also, note that while the unupped is create 2 quanta per point, this is :rainbow quanta not :underworld
and looking at the dispersion shields in game right now, you can see that one :underworld is worth roughly 3 :rainbow in terms of quanta used per point absorbed.
Whether the glass is half full or half empty is a moot point. It is always filled to the brim. It is only a matter of by what. The real question is: What fills you?
If your zombie plan is
kill -9 `ps l | awk '{print $2" "$3" "$9}' | grep "Z" | awk '{printf("%s ",$2)}'`
You might be a unix junky

Offline iskelion

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 269
  • Reputation Power: 5
  • iskelion is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • Iskelion
Re: Dispersive Ward | Entropic Aegis https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=52701.msg1113293#msg1113293
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2013, 06:59:05 pm »
and looking at the dispersion shields in game right now, you can see that one :underworld is worth roughly 3/4 :rainbow in terms of quanta used per point absorbed.

i agree, but i think this card would be OP if 3 :rainbow were produces from each point absorbed as this can negate up to 3/4 dmg from each source, the amount of  :rainbow produced in a single turn could be monstruos
-lets assume this negates 10 dmg/turn (a modest assumption), that would mean a 30 :rainbow/turn production, enough to fill all your quanta needs by itself

p.d.: did you intend the upped to produce only 1 :rainbow per point or is it just a typo?
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 07:09:47 pm by iskelion »

Offline CuCN

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1756
  • Reputation Power: 25
  • CuCN is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.CuCN is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.CuCN is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.CuCN is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.CuCN is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.
  • Toxic
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 5th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 4th Birthday Cake
Re: Dispersive Ward | Entropic Aegis https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=52701.msg1113294#msg1113294
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2013, 07:11:27 pm »
The upped produces 1 :entropy, not 1 :rainbow.

Offline iskelion

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 269
  • Reputation Power: 5
  • iskelion is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • Iskelion
Re: Dispersive Ward | Entropic Aegis https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=52701.msg1113299#msg1113299
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2013, 07:38:38 pm »
The upped produces 1 :entropy, not 1 :rainbow.

either i read wrong or it was changed, in any case writing " :entropy" would be the canon way

Offline OdinVanguardTopic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4984
  • Reputation Power: 67
  • OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.
  • Keeping The Jotnar at bay
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 4th Birthday Cake
Re: Dispersive Ward | Entropic Aegis https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=52701.msg1113300#msg1113300
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2013, 07:43:25 pm »
and looking at the dispersion shields in game right now, you can see that one :underworld is worth roughly 3/4 :rainbow in terms of quanta used per point absorbed.

i agree, but i think this card would be OP if 3 :rainbow were produces from each point absorbed as this can negate up to 3/4 dmg from each source, the amount of  :rainbow produced in a single turn could be monstruos
-lets assume this negates 10 dmg/turn (a modest assumption), that would mean a 30 :rainbow/turn production, enough to fill all your quanta needs by itself

p.d.: did you intend the upped to produce only 1 :rainbow per point or is it just a typo?
I agree, with you on the production being too high with 3 :rainbow per point reduced, which is why it only produces 2 :rainbow per point.

But note that this shield functions more like solar buckler than dispersion shield. I.e. it only reduces a set amount of damage per attack whereas dispersion shield absorbs all damage from every attack...

So 10 dmg reduced per turn absorbed is actually fairly high since that would require several creatures attacking.

This is because, on average, the shield only absorbs 1.5 damage per attack, so it would take on average 6 to 7 attackers before you would get to absorb 10 damage with the shield. Further, those attackers would need to be doing at least 2 to 3 damage each to make the averaging work out.

That scenario is certainly not terribly uncommon, but it won't likely be happening till mid to late game most of the time... at which point you would likely be able to match that output by other means (7 quantum pillars by round 6 or 7 is quite easy to accomplish).

The upped produces 1 :entropy, not 1 :rainbow.

either i read wrong or it was changed, in any case writing " :entropy" would be the canon way
Good call, I've updated the OP accordingly
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 07:47:08 pm by OdinVanguard »
Whether the glass is half full or half empty is a moot point. It is always filled to the brim. It is only a matter of by what. The real question is: What fills you?
If your zombie plan is
kill -9 `ps l | awk '{print $2" "$3" "$9}' | grep "Z" | awk '{printf("%s ",$2)}'`
You might be a unix junky

Offline foofatron

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 169
  • Reputation Power: 3
  • foofatron is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • New to Elements
Re: Dispersive Ward | Entropic Aegis https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=52701.msg1113302#msg1113302
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2013, 08:17:22 pm »
If the upped blocks 0-4, then according to the equation on the last page shouldn't that cost be 7? Might be understanding it wrong, but...

 [8 (average DR [2]) +3 (DR-pillar effect) -3 (Single slot) -1 (Entropy random effect bonus) = 7  :entropy]

Offline iskelion

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 269
  • Reputation Power: 5
  • iskelion is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • Iskelion
Re: Dispersive Ward | Entropic Aegis https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=52701.msg1113305#msg1113305
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2013, 08:35:32 pm »
yup, i think the card is ok as it is now, i was saying 3 :rainbow would be too much
absorbing a random amount speaks the  :entropy language, i know i would use this card for the sake of fun

Offline OdinVanguardTopic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4984
  • Reputation Power: 67
  • OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.
  • Keeping The Jotnar at bay
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 4th Birthday Cake
Re: Dispersive Ward | Entropic Aegis https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=52701.msg1113308#msg1113308
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2013, 08:52:41 pm »
If the upped blocks 0-4, then according to the equation on the last page shouldn't that cost be 7? Might be understanding it wrong, but...

 [8 (average DR [2]) +3 (DR-pillar effect) -3 (Single slot) -1 (Entropy random effect bonus) = 7  :entropy]
Looks like a pretty solid cross-element Solar Shield.  The non-upgraded would be reasonably balanced with 3 quanta per turn (think Quanyum Pillar), as it pretty much mirrors Solar Shield with exception to the DR being an average and a rainbow production.  For the upgraded, a cost of  would be reasonable [6 (average DR [1.5]) +3 (DR-pillar effect) -3 (Single slot) -1 (Entropy random effect bonus) = 5  :entropy].  As for the types of damage reduced, I would leave it at only physical for the sake of consistency.
Ya I'm a little sketchy on the equation myself... I was actually trying to reconstruct it based on this thread: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/design-theory/the-new-card-theory-thread/

So for the upped I would get:
1st DR (average): +1
2nd DR (average): +3
DR Pillar: +3
Single Slot: -3
Entropy Random: -1
Upgrade bonus: -1
1 +3 +3 -3 -1 -1 = 2... but that seems way too low... so retrying the average a little more rigorously

min DR of 0 = 0
max DR of 4 = 1 + 3*3 = 10
so avg DR of 2 calculated as one half of (max DR cost + min DR cost): 10 /2 = 5
now I would get:
5 +3 -3 -1 -1 = 3 ... which is again way too low...
not sure where to go.
Whether the glass is half full or half empty is a moot point. It is always filled to the brim. It is only a matter of by what. The real question is: What fills you?
If your zombie plan is
kill -9 `ps l | awk '{print $2" "$3" "$9}' | grep "Z" | awk '{printf("%s ",$2)}'`
You might be a unix junky

Offline Captain Scibra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1345
  • Reputation Power: 20
  • Captain Scibra is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.Captain Scibra is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.Captain Scibra is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.Captain Scibra is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.
  • Do Domhantarraingt. Dúinn go léir.
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 7th Birthday Cake8th Trials - Master of GravitySlice of Elements 3rd Birthday Cake
Re: Dispersive Ward | Entropic Aegis https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=52701.msg1113395#msg1113395
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2013, 05:07:08 am »
Okay, made the unupped 4 :entropy and upped now reduces 0 to 4 damage.

Also, note that while the unupped is create 2 quanta per point, this is :rainbow quanta not :underworld
and looking at the dispersion shields in game right now, you can see that one :underworld is worth roughly 3 :rainbow in terms of quanta used per point absorbed.

I have yet to officially finish all of my theories, but I am gonna go with OT's equation:
1.5 (X :underworld +1) = Y :rainbow

So 1 :underworld = 3 :rainbow, but 2 :underworld = 5 :rainbow (Can also be 4, but to give each pair of values a unique ratio, I recommend that this equation rounds up, except 0 :underworld= 1 :rainbow EDIT: I notice rounding up means 3 = 6 and 4 = 8, but I think that is a pretty big variable to consider, therefore preferential to lower, likely more common ratios have priority of uniqueness.)
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 03:33:53 am by Captain Scibra »
Rule #1: The Captain is never wrong.  Rule #2: If the Captain is wrong, refer to Rule #1.
The New Card Theory Thread

Offline OdinVanguardTopic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4984
  • Reputation Power: 67
  • OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.
  • Keeping The Jotnar at bay
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 4th Birthday Cake
Re: Dispersive Ward | Entropic Aegis https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=52701.msg1114242#msg1114242
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2013, 06:07:07 pm »
Okay, made the unupped 4 :entropy and upped now reduces 0 to 4 damage.

Also, note that while the unupped is create 2 quanta per point, this is :rainbow quanta not :underworld
and looking at the dispersion shields in game right now, you can see that one :underworld is worth roughly 3 :rainbow in terms of quanta used per point absorbed.

I have yet to officially finish all of my theories, but I am gonna go with OT's equation:
1.5 (X :underworld +1) = Y :rainbow

So 1 :underworld = 3 :rainbow, but 2 :underworld = 5 :rainbow (Can also be 4, but to give each pair of values a unique ratio, I recommend that this equation rounds up, except 0 :underworld= 1 :rainbow EDIT: I notice rounding up means 3 = 6 and 4 = 8, but I think that is a pretty big variable to consider, therefore preferential to lower, likely more common ratios have priority of uniqueness.)
Interesting, I'll have to keep an eye on the topic, since I try to use cost theory as much as possible when initially creating cards. I look forward to seeing what develops.

The big point I was trying to figure out, though, is what the formula was for shield DR.
Also, since it seems like having it also absorb spell damage is popular, how much do you think that would be worth? Or how would the DR cost formula change if both spell and physical damage get reduced?
Whether the glass is half full or half empty is a moot point. It is always filled to the brim. It is only a matter of by what. The real question is: What fills you?
If your zombie plan is
kill -9 `ps l | awk '{print $2" "$3" "$9}' | grep "Z" | awk '{printf("%s ",$2)}'`
You might be a unix junky

Offline farscape

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 226
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 5
  • farscape is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • Emperor Crichton
Re: Dispersive Ward | Entropic Aegis https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=52701.msg1114246#msg1114246
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2013, 06:19:39 pm »
Voted physical damage only. If it also reduces spell, then the cost should be increased IMHO, otherwise its not balanced against Jade-shield.

 

blarg: