*Author

YoYoBro

  • Guest
Re: Diamond Spear | Diamond Lance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19671.msg251112#msg251112
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2011, 03:32:52 pm »
The dmg difference looks quite high tho.

Offline NepycrosTopic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2571
  • Reputation Power: 32
  • Nepycros is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Nepycros is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Nepycros is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Nepycros is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Nepycros is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Nepycros is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.
  • My creativity was OP, so I had to nerf it.
Re: Diamond Spear | Diamond Lance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19671.msg251118#msg251118
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2011, 03:42:26 pm »
So, raise the damage to 6? In a bit, I'll show the flying stats: 5|7. it's 7 because, well. It's diamond. Sure, you're shattering it alot, but it's still durable.
Perception is the source of misunderstanding.

Why, yes. I do have a Mindgate necklace. It's how I ninja everyone.

YoYoBro

  • Guest
Re: Diamond Spear | Diamond Lance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19671.msg251133#msg251133
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2011, 04:08:53 pm »
Nepycros is right. Actually, it would deserve even more HP since diamond is supposed to be the most durable substance on earth.

BloodAngel

  • Guest
Re: Diamond Spear | Diamond Lance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19671.msg251174#msg251174
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2011, 04:54:41 pm »
Try mapping Total Damage/Total Cost and compare that turn by turn with FFQ
Don't Forget to mark where a single Spear or Queen manages to eclipse 100 and 200 hp
Then remember to interpret the data with the initial turn speed in mind (Spear comes into play at least a full turn earlier on average)

As oldtrees says, so it will be :)


FFQ Cost 7  :air to summon, so on average on turn two +  :life :life for the skill
Turn 1: 0 damage
Turn 2: 1 ffq, 3 damage                                 7 :air
Turn 3: 1 ffq, 1 ff 7 damage                           7 :air    2 :life
Turn 4: 1 ffq, 2 ff 11 damage                         7 :air    4 :life
Turn 5: 1 ffq, 3 ff 15 damage                         7 :air    6 :life
Turn 6: 1 ffq, 4 ff 19 damage                         7 :air    8 :life
Turn 7: 1 ffq, 5 ff 23 damage                         7 :air  10 :life
Turn 8: 1 ffq, 6 ff 27 damage                         7 :air  12 :life
Turn 9: 1 ffq, 7 ff 31 damage                         7 :air  14 :life    (105 total dmg, dead without shields)
Turn 10: 1 ffq, 8 ff 35 damage                       7 :air  16 :life
Turn 11: 1 ffq, 9 ff 39 damage                       7 :air  18 :life    (210 total, dead for FQ w/o shields)

About 19 damage a turn (210 total) for a total of 25 quanta.
tho the ff will generate 1 :fire quanta each turn, so that would be + 45  :fire quanta

Lance  Cost 5 :earth to play +  :fire for the shatter +  :earth for the reborn

Turn 1: 1 weapon, 5 damage'                                  4 :earth
Turn 2: 3 fragments, 5 Damage                               4 :earth +   1 :fire
Turn 3: 1 weapon, 1 fragment, 5 damage'               5 :earth +   1 :fire
Turn 4: 4 fragments, 5 damage'                               5 :earth +   1 :fire
Turn 5: 2 weapons, 10 damage                               7 :earth +   1 :fire
Turn 6: 6 fragments, 10 damage'                             7 :earth +   3 :fire
Turn 7: 3 weapons, 15 damage                             10 :earth +   3 :fire
Turn 8: 9 fragments, 15 damage'                           10 :earth +   6 :fire
Turn 9: 4 weapons, 1 fragment, 20 damage          14 :earth +   6 :fire
Turn 10: 13 fragments, 20 damage                        14 :earth + 10 :fire
Turn 11: 6 weapons, 1 fragment, 30 damage        20 :earth + 10 :fire

About 12,7 damage a turn (140 total) for the cost of 30 quanta

Took the 1 turn delay in credit as you can see,
And as a result to the small caltulating,

You can clearly see that the FFQ dominates the Lance,
tho they are different cards with different costs and abilities,

The difference is somewhat big, so a buff might be on it's place here,
correct me if you think I'm wrong  >:(

Offline OldTrees

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 10297
  • Reputation Power: 114
  • OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
  • I was available for questions.
  • Awards: Brawl #2 Winner - Team FireTeam Card Design Winner
Re: Diamond Spear | Diamond Lance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19671.msg251304#msg251304
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2011, 08:11:05 pm »
Thank you blood angel

There are 16 permanent slots (19 total including weapon[10th],shield[4th],mark[5th])

So pvp, AI 3, Top50 victory at 100hp
FFQ
Turn +7 Cost 7 :air + 14 :life (105 total dmg)
Diamond Spear
Turn +9 Cost 14 :earth +10 :fire (110 total dmg)

Relevant details:
Diamond Spear is vulnerable to both PC and CC.
Diamond Spear has a lower initial cost meaning it will start its 10 turn clock sooner than FFQ's 8 turn clock.
Conclusion from details: Diamond Spear should cost less if it has a clock of 1 turn more than FFQ
Conclusion in Full: Diamond Spear vs 100hp is UP by at least 1 turn and 3 quanta.

So Half Blood and FGs
Continuing the Diamond Spear Progression
Turn +9: 13 fragments, 20 damage                        14 :earth + 10 :fire
Turn +10: 6 weapons, 1 fragment, 30 damage        20 :earth + 10 :fire
Turn +11: 1 weapons, 16 fragments, 30 damage      20 :earth + 15 :fire
Turn +12: 8 weapons, 3fragments, 45 damage         28 :earth + 16 :fire

FFQ
Turn +9 Cost 7 :air + 18 :life (210 total dmg)
Diamond Spear
Turn +12 Cost 28 :earth +16 :fire (215 total dmg)

Relevant details:
Diamond Spear is vulnerable to both PC and CC.
Diamond Spear has a lower initial cost meaning it will start its 10 turn clock sooner than FFQ's 8 turn clock.
Conclusion from details: Diamond Spear should cost less if it has a clock of 1 turn more than FFQ
Conclusion in Full: Diamond Spear vs 200hp is UP by at least 2 turns and 19 quanta.

Yes Diamond Spear is objectively Underpowered in a reasonable comparison with FFQ.
The Damage of Diamond Spear needs to be speed up and its cost to kill decreased.
The goals would be:
100hp in <21 quanta in 9 turns
200hp in <25 quanta in 11 turns

Unfortunately I cannot solve both goals but I can get close to each
This is for the upgraded
Casting Cost: 5 :earth
Activation Cost Shatter: 1 :fire
Activation Cost Reform: 0 :earth
Damage Attack: 8
Damage Shatter: 6
Total Damage on Turn +8: 130
Total Cost on Turn +8: 5 :earth+14 :fire
Total Damage on Turn +10: 202
Total Cost on Turn +10: 5 :earth+22 :fire
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
"Nothing exists that cannot be countered." -OldTrees on indirect counters
Ask the Idea Guru: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,32272.0.htm

BloodAngel

  • Guest
Re: Diamond Spear | Diamond Lance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19671.msg251343#msg251343
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2011, 09:07:27 pm »
No problem! 8)

happy that i could do something,
didn't had time for a sorta - like the same analysis as you did,
damn school!

thanks for the great analysis,
Just saying this as i like the card a lot and it just needed to be better to have a change,
which it could be with the changes recommended by OldTrees.

Have a goodnight all

Offline NepycrosTopic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2571
  • Reputation Power: 32
  • Nepycros is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Nepycros is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Nepycros is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Nepycros is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Nepycros is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Nepycros is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.
  • My creativity was OP, so I had to nerf it.
Re: Diamond Spear | Diamond Lance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19671.msg251389#msg251389
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2011, 09:53:23 pm »
Impressive. But, don't forget the formula for weapons initially. If upgraded does 8 damage, that would mean the unupped would obligatively be forced to have 7 attack, in comparison to Morning Star and Titan, both of which only gain a +1 attack in upgrade due to having such massive attack to begin with. You forget that this weapon is initially, in purest form, a weapon. For now, however, it will be 7/7 when flying, 8/10 upgraded. Any objections?
Perception is the source of misunderstanding.

Why, yes. I do have a Mindgate necklace. It's how I ninja everyone.

Uppercut

  • Guest
Re: Diamond Spear | Diamond Lance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19671.msg251400#msg251400
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2011, 09:57:51 pm »
Since fragments have no cost would they be free if they ended up in your hand?

YoYoBro

  • Guest
Re: Diamond Spear | Diamond Lance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19671.msg251402#msg251402
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2011, 09:59:40 pm »
No, nepy, that should do the trick. I'd even go as far as making it an 8/12 upped, 7/9 unupped, but that's just flavor.

And OldTrees, gratz for your analysis as always. You rock.

 

anything
blarg: