Dark Sun | Dark Star

[Boingo]

(http://imageplay.net/)	(http://imageplay.net/)
NAME: Dark Sun ELEMENT: Darkness COST: 10 TYPE: Spell ATK|HP: ABILITY: Destroy all creatures with N>30, where N is the product of a creature's attack and HP. ART BY: IDEA BY: Boingo	NAME: Dark Star ELEMENT: Darkness COST: 10 TYPE: Spell ATK|HP: ABILITY: Destroy all creatures with N>24, where N is the product of a creature's attack and HP. ART BY: IDEA BY: Boingo

NOTES: [/color][/b] Essentially an anti-growth/anti-dragon card, this fills a need Darkness has for crowd control.  An excellent addition to both mono-/duo- Darkness as well as rainbow decks.  These cards affect all creatures in play.

SERIES: [/color][/b] EPIC 3 Card Design challenge: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,6012.msg68699#msg68699

EDIT:  Have altered card to affect ALL creatures in play (previously just enemy creatures.)

[Jaxly]

I'm going to say no almost purely because growth decks already have it pretty tough against darkness. A golem rush deck has a first turn period where it is extremely vunerable to bolts etc. Life drain, for one quantum will destroy any newly played golem or low hp creature. With this card the upper tiers of the golem rush also become vunerable.
In addition to that this card is better at killing creatures with more HP than weaker creatures, which aside from being an "unwritten guideline" doesn't at all fit with the general darkness theme of preying on the weak.
I wouldn't mind as much if it was for any other element, but darkness has enough as is.

[Boingo]

I'm going to say no almost purely because growth decks already have it pretty tough against darkness. A golem rush deck has a first turn period where it is extremely vunerable to bolts etc. Life drain, for one quantum will destroy any newly played golem or low hp creature. With this card the upper tiers of the golem rush also become vunerable.

Is the opposition to the card based on one deck alone?  Hardly seems fair.  Plus, a deck with this card runs the risk of not having any use for it whatsoever since it fails to target some of the most commonly used creature cards including FFQ, Devourer, Fallen Elf, and Horned Frog:
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,4093.0.html

This seems to be a fair trade-off to me.

In addition to that this card is better at killing creatures with more HP than weaker creatures, which aside from being an "unwritten guideline" doesn't at all fit with the general darkness theme of preying on the weak.
I wouldn't mind as much if it was for any other element, but darkness has enough as is.

Unwritten guidelines are not true guidelines of course.  I guess I have to disagree that darkness has a theme of "preying on the weak" any more than the rest.  Sure, parasite can poison another creature, but it can poison all creatures great and small.  Otyugh and scarab quite literally "prey on the weak".  As for having enough as it is, currently has only 10 cards available at the bazaar which ties for the fewest.

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.

[Scaredgirl]

First of all I really like the art. That hue combined with a Darkness card looks awesome.

As for the card itself.. I think the idea is pretty cool, but the card needs a serious buff.

How many creatures actually have that that N>24? Not that many. We are talking about attack + HP here, right?

Many of those creatures that can potentially be N>24 are growing creatures and the opponent can simply stop growing them at some point.

[Jaxly]

I think he meant product, as in multiplication.
For instance a steel golem would have 6 attack and 9 health.
6*9=54; well within the cards accepted range.
An elite Cockatrice would be verging on the upped versions limit, with 5*5= 25
I might be wrong, but thats the way I read it.

[Scaredgirl]

I think he meant product, as in multiplication.
For instance a steel golem would have 6 attack and 9 health.
6*9=54; well within the cards accepted range.
An elite Cockatrice would be verging on the upped versions limit, with 5*5= 25
I might be wrong, but thats the way I read it.

Cool, I learned a new word. Well, an old word, but with a new meaning. I never knew result of a multiplication is a "product" (it's a bit different in my language).

I have to revise my earlier comment: This card is overpowered.

[killsdazombies]

that or he means sum and mistyped...
product would super OP and sum would be UP.... im confused....

[Terroking]

Change it so it affects all creatures, and you'll be good (Still a bit OP, but I guess the cost can negate that). In a darkness mono, the only card it will kill is the dragon, since even with eclipse the Vampire (Next biggest hitter) has 6*4=24.

That said, it'd a lot more balanced if it was sum, and the upped went to ~18, the unupped probably 20. Wouldn't have much effect except on strong creatures, namely dragons.

[Boingo]

First of all I really like the art. That hue combined with a Darkness card looks awesome.

Thanks! This was my first card so I was trial-and-error with the Pixlr but it seemed to work out alright.

I think he meant product, as in multiplication.
For instance a steel golem would have 6 attack and 9 health.
6*9=54; well within the cards accepted range.
An elite Cockatrice would be verging on the upped versions limit, with 5*5= 25
I might be wrong, but thats the way I read it.

This is what I meant--multiplication.  In addition to dragons/growth creatures, I chose 30 and 24 because with those values you can hit a lot of upped cards but not their unupped counterparts across many different elements including:
elite shriekers  archangels  abyss crawlers
elite cockatrices  elite chargers  flesh recluses (with eclipse) 
dark nymph (without eclipse)

FWIW, I believe the crimson dragon and abomination were the only ones which would do better upped than unupped.

Change it so it affects all creatures, and you'll be good (Still a bit OP, but I guess the cost can negate that). In a darkness mono, the only card it will kill is the dragon, since even with eclipse the Vampire (Next biggest hitter) has 6*4=24.

That said, it'd a lot more balanced if it was sum, and the upped went to ~18, the unupped probably 20. Wouldn't have much effect except on strong creatures, namely dragons.

The change to affect all creatures seems reasonable and something I wrestled with when putting the card together.  I'll have to go back to doing some math to find a reasonable SUM for these cards. 

As for the "OP" consideration since it'd only affect dragons, I'd put it on par with flooding/inundation since no creature is affected but every other element is.  And that costs 2/3 to cast and is permanent instead of a 1 time spell.

Thanks for the input everyone!

[Boingo]

That said, it'd a lot more balanced if it was sum, and the upped went to ~18, the unupped probably 20. Wouldn't have much effect except on strong creatures, namely dragons.

Assuming we use a sum of attack + hp >20 as our limit, which creatures would be affected?
1. Massive dragon
2. Basalt dragon
3. Jade dragon
4. Light dragon
5. Obsidian dragon (with eclipse)
6. Growth creatures (eventually)
7. Improved mutants (sometimes)
8. Anything with basilisk blood
9. Flying Titan
10. Armagio/Elite Armagio

With attack + hp >18 as our limit, we add the following:
1. Ivory dragon (with eclipse)
2. Colossal dragon
3. Golden dragon
4. Sky dragon

That leaves all the dragons from and totally unaffected.  And of these 5 elements, the only creatures to be affected would be end-game scarabs (because of their swarm ability.)  That's why I used multiplication instead of addition since you get a lot more breadth (and a little more depth) of potentially affected cards. 

In the end, the difference between the original multiplication-scheme and the suggested sum-scheme: losing coverage of 7 upped creatures and 10 dragons.

Neither version would impact some of the most popular cards including FFQ, pharoah, vampire, arctic octopus, anubis, physalia and RoL.

[Terroking]

Abubis would be killed by either, upped or not. 5*8=40.

I see you changed it to all creatures, much more balanced I suppose.

[Boingo]

Abubis would be killed by either, upped or not. 5*8=40.

I see you changed it to all creatures, much more balanced I suppose.

You're right with the anubis math--post now corrected. (Also consider: most times anubis self-quints by turn 2.)