*Author

Offline storytellerTopic starter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 930
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 16
  • storyteller is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.storyteller is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.storyteller is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.
  • a very old soul
Dark Rites | Forbidden Lore https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43734.msg1003281#msg1003281
« on: September 27, 2012, 10:51:01 pm »
NAME:
Dark Rites
ELEMENT:
Darkness
COST:
1 :darkness
TYPE:
Permanent
ATK|HP:

TEXT:
:fire : Generate :darkness :darkness
May be used multiple times per turn.
NAME:
Forbidden Lore
ELEMENT:
Darkness
COST:
0
TYPE:
Permanent
ATK|HP:

TEXT:
:fire : Generate :darkness :darkness
May be used multiple times per turn.

ART:
Storyteller
IDEA:
Storyteller
NOTES:
similar to a leaf dragon, it turns fire to darkness at a premium.
SERIES:


Offline Rutarete

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6505
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 72
  • Rutarete frolics as one of the Phase Dragons, timeless and superior, gargantuan beasts of peerless wisdom.Rutarete frolics as one of the Phase Dragons, timeless and superior, gargantuan beasts of peerless wisdom.Rutarete frolics as one of the Phase Dragons, timeless and superior, gargantuan beasts of peerless wisdom.Rutarete frolics as one of the Phase Dragons, timeless and superior, gargantuan beasts of peerless wisdom.Rutarete frolics as one of the Phase Dragons, timeless and superior, gargantuan beasts of peerless wisdom.Rutarete frolics as one of the Phase Dragons, timeless and superior, gargantuan beasts of peerless wisdom.Rutarete frolics as one of the Phase Dragons, timeless and superior, gargantuan beasts of peerless wisdom.Rutarete frolics as one of the Phase Dragons, timeless and superior, gargantuan beasts of peerless wisdom.Rutarete frolics as one of the Phase Dragons, timeless and superior, gargantuan beasts of peerless wisdom.Rutarete frolics as one of the Phase Dragons, timeless and superior, gargantuan beasts of peerless wisdom.Rutarete frolics as one of the Phase Dragons, timeless and superior, gargantuan beasts of peerless wisdom.Rutarete frolics as one of the Phase Dragons, timeless and superior, gargantuan beasts of peerless wisdom.Rutarete frolics as one of the Phase Dragons, timeless and superior, gargantuan beasts of peerless wisdom.Rutarete frolics as one of the Phase Dragons, timeless and superior, gargantuan beasts of peerless wisdom.
  • Creativity should be nurtured.
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 6th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 5th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeRuby Shard of DeckbuildingSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday Cake
Re: Dark Rites | Forbidden Lore https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43734.msg1003298#msg1003298
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2012, 12:09:18 am »
Why Fire and Darkness? I see a connection but why those two in particular? Also, the cards are missing the name.
It is the greatest mystery of all...
Rutarete: Roo tah reh teh
[22:50] <Jyi> meaning gets lost in translation... even in the same language.
My Decks

Offline jawdirk

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 367
  • Reputation Power: 7
  • jawdirk is a Spark waiting for a buff.
Re: Dark Rites | Forbidden Lore https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43734.msg1003299#msg1003299
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2012, 12:12:43 am »
I like it. The upped is powerful though, since you can get 6 :darkness with SN + this card and only 2  :entropy. I'm not sure if that is over-powered, but the issue is that you don't need a second element (unlike leaf dragon). Since the cost of this card is lower than the usual cost of PC (ignoring SoF), it can't be efficiently countered. Again, this is in contrast to leaf dragon, which can be killed by many forms of CC for equal :underworld.

Offline furballdn

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7573
  • Reputation Power: 86
  • furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
  • Facetious trollnotmod
  • Awards: Epic 3 Card Winner - Clockwork GolemBest Recruiter of FriendsBest JournalistBest Chat PainterBattle - Slayer of The Great ChimeraBest Crafted Relic of Other
Re: Dark Rites | Forbidden Lore https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43734.msg1003300#msg1003300
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2012, 12:14:29 am »
Why do we need the 132 other rustlers in the game? Thematically how does fire convert into darkness? What synergies are there to be had?

Offline storytellerTopic starter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 930
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 16
  • storyteller is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.storyteller is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.storyteller is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.
  • a very old soul
Re: Dark Rites | Forbidden Lore https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43734.msg1003333#msg1003333
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2012, 02:09:36 am »
Why do we need the 132 other rustlers in the game? Thematically how does fire convert into darkness? What synergies are there to be had?

Forbidden Lore+Immolation+Ray of Light  == Obsidian Dragon. Is that enough "Synergy" for you?

Offline furballdn

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7573
  • Reputation Power: 86
  • furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
  • Facetious trollnotmod
  • Awards: Epic 3 Card Winner - Clockwork GolemBest Recruiter of FriendsBest JournalistBest Chat PainterBattle - Slayer of The Great ChimeraBest Crafted Relic of Other
Re: Dark Rites | Forbidden Lore https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43734.msg1003336#msg1003336
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2012, 02:18:34 am »
Ah. Now you want synergy with immo. Sure let's look at that.

3 cards + 1 turn = 17 :darkness + 10 :rainbow. Is this balanced?

Explain why out of the 132 rustlers that :fire --> :underworld :underworld ones are needed and if they are balanced with cremation or not.

I would like to see some play test results.

Offline OdinVanguard

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4984
  • Reputation Power: 67
  • OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.
  • Keeping The Jotnar at bay
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 4th Birthday Cake
Re: Dark Rites | Forbidden Lore https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43734.msg1003341#msg1003341
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2012, 02:37:21 am »
I like the concept, but I don't think darkness needs an extra quanta production boost. It already has devourer for that.
The elements that don't have non-pillar production are:
:aether
:time
:gravity
:entropy
:water
I think the game needs a rustler like card for one of those first before adding more to elements that already have alternate sources.
Whether the glass is half full or half empty is a moot point. It is always filled to the brim. It is only a matter of by what. The real question is: What fills you?
If your zombie plan is
kill -9 `ps l | awk '{print $2" "$3" "$9}' | grep "Z" | awk '{printf("%s ",$2)}'`
You might be a unix junky

Offline storytellerTopic starter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 930
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 16
  • storyteller is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.storyteller is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.storyteller is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.
  • a very old soul
Re: Dark Rites | Forbidden Lore https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43734.msg1003381#msg1003381
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2012, 10:28:23 am »
I like the concept, but I don't think darkness needs an extra quanta production boost. It already has devourer for that.
The elements that don't have non-pillar production are:
:aether
:time
:gravity
:entropy
:water
I think the game needs a rustler like card for one of those first before adding more to elements that already have alternate sources.

Aether doesnt need it, Entropy has Nova. Gravity has Black Hole, which is the opposite, but still applicable. I do think other element could use alternate Quanta generation, but Im focusing on this one dynamic right now.


Ah. Now you want synergy with immo. Sure let's look at that.

3 cards + 1 turn = 17 :darkness + 10 :rainbow. Is this balanced?

Explain why out of the 132 rustlers that :fire --> :underworld :underworld ones are needed and if they are balanced with cremation or not.

I would like to see some play test results.
Im not really concerned with the other elements, I think other quanta generators and boosters would serve many elements well.

I do think the dynamic is balanced overall, as it is a one time use, consider SNova, with +22 Quanta for one card, or Nova with 12 for one card. 27~ for 3 cards is pretty balanced by the look of things. Im looking at things from primarily a thematic view, and Darkness is a traditional force that gets strong energy boosts from card play. Consider M:tG Dark Ritual, the first common mana producer, with one black to 3 black for a net gain of 2. other than ultra rare Mox's and the Lotus, this was predominant. I am creating a similar card here. It is long standing that 'dark magic' gets boosts to energy production by sacrificing something else. In this case, you are burning something and using the fire to create dark energy, by empowering the ritual. One might think of it as incense or smoke that puts one in a trance, or the movement of the flames, I just think they go together well. You could also say that fire makes smoke, thus creating a cover of darkness.

Balance wise, if you look at other combos, 3 cards to play a dragon is pretty balanced overall, given that its only one and cant do much else. Look at fire, which for 4 cards can play a dragon and a weapon, shield, phoenix or golem. Cremx2+RoLx2
You could also look at Entropy, with 3 cards, an upped pillar, a ray of light and improved mutation for a possible dragon or other powerful creature. How about Nova + SoFo? Pretty nasty overall.

Looking at the metagame, the overall distribution of force, Darkness has its power, but it has waned of late. Time is very powerful with SoR, Pharoah, etc. Air has Sky Blitz and SoFr. Light has Sanctuary and Crusaders, making it quite formidable. Darkness is weak. Giving it a solid combo to produce large amounts of quanta, enough that Drain Life starts doing as much as shockwave, or to summon a dragon, would serve it well. Elements is all about combining power. Dark Rites is strong on its own, maximizing Quanta production, Using it in combination with Cremation, i.e., giving a living sacrifice to it in conjunction creates a logical, thematic and quite balanced play.

Consider the deck:
6: Dark Rites
6: Cremation
6: Ray of Light
6: Obsidian Dragon
6: Cloak or other cards of your choice, EA, Purify, a shield come to mind. Shard of Bravery would be a solid choice.

this is a minimal 30 card deck and roughly gives the core of its use, without much frills. Its the most direct application of the card. Now compare it to Instosis. Instosis can be used to OtK, this cant. Instosis can pump dragons for free turn after turn, this cant, only 6. This is faster, but can be broken with permanent control. So when you put it up against another existing, strong dragon summoner, its different, but not more powerful.

All in all I think it makes a nice addition to the game and combines two elements without much current synergy. Fire and Darkness go hand in Hand, this card brings them together in the game, where there is little if any connection between them.

Personally, I think this could be used the turn it is cast without breaking things, or possibly as spell that simply converts your fire to 2x Darkness quanta.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 10:36:03 am by storyteller »

Offline furballdn

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7573
  • Reputation Power: 86
  • furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
  • Facetious trollnotmod
  • Awards: Epic 3 Card Winner - Clockwork GolemBest Recruiter of FriendsBest JournalistBest Chat PainterBattle - Slayer of The Great ChimeraBest Crafted Relic of Other
Re: Dark Rites | Forbidden Lore https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43734.msg1003599#msg1003599
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2012, 02:36:10 am »
Good to see your response. It shows me that you at least put some effort and thinking into this card. I appreciate your defense.

22 :rainbow does not equal 22 :underworld. Random quanta gain is worth less than the same amount of quanta put into a single element. Mana does not equal quanta. MtG and EtG has slight differences on energy gathering. Nova+SoFo is not a good comparison because SoFo is OP, so any synergies with it are also most likely OP.

Darkness has waned? I doubt that, but then again, all you see in competitive PvP are shards. I have never seen mono time, or air decks in upped PvP. Sky blitz and SoFre for air aren't that powerful. Darkness is weak? Hardly, it is one of the strongest mono elements out there.

Comparison to Instosis is irrelevant and pointless. Instosis is a specialized FG OTK killer. Instosis does poorly in PvP due to so much PC, and your argument of its OTK potential is flawwed. (Voodoo doll decks also have the potential to OTK. This is irrelevant to the topic at hand)


Offline storytellerTopic starter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 930
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 16
  • storyteller is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.storyteller is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.storyteller is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.
  • a very old soul
Re: Dark Rites | Forbidden Lore https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43734.msg1003627#msg1003627
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2012, 05:23:35 am »
Good to see your response. It shows me that you at least put some effort and thinking into this card. I appreciate your defense.

22 :rainbow does not equal 22 :underworld. Random quanta gain is worth less than the same amount of quanta put into a single element. Mana does not equal quanta. MtG and EtG has slight differences on energy gathering. Nova+SoFo is not a good comparison because SoFo is OP, so any synergies with it are also most likely OP.

Darkness has waned? I doubt that, but then again, all you see in competitive PvP are shards. I have never seen mono time, or air decks in upped PvP. Sky blitz and SoFre for air aren't that powerful. Darkness is weak? Hardly, it is one of the strongest mono elements out there.

Comparison to Instosis is irrelevant and pointless. Instosis is a specialized FG OTK killer. Instosis does poorly in PvP due to so much PC, and your argument of its OTK potential is flawwed. (Voodoo doll decks also have the potential to OTK. This is irrelevant to the topic at hand)

Im sorry, saying everything is irrelevant is bad, high school debate tactics. You seem like a smart guy, you owe it to yourself to actually put some thought into things. I made sound and valid statements. Not that this is a debate, its a discussion. You asked for my reasoning and I gave it. If you are unhappy with why or how I made the card, so be it, but dismissing the foundation for it and my comparisons aren't really welcome. If you see a flaw in the card, say so. If you simply dont like it, ok. To come in here and act like you are the final authority on what is and isnty a good comparison is faulted at best. Try again. You may earn my respect yet.

Offline furballdn

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7573
  • Reputation Power: 86
  • furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.furballdn is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
  • Facetious trollnotmod
  • Awards: Epic 3 Card Winner - Clockwork GolemBest Recruiter of FriendsBest JournalistBest Chat PainterBattle - Slayer of The Great ChimeraBest Crafted Relic of Other
Re: Dark Rites | Forbidden Lore https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43734.msg1003631#msg1003631
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2012, 05:31:10 am »
My questions were in genuine interest in asking to see why you made a card like that. I am merely stating that comparing this card to Instosis is pointless because they are two completely different concepts. I am not "unhappy" with your reasoning, I would just like more on why you believe darkness needs a card and if it is balanced or not. I do not act like a "final authority" and I am sorry if you feel that way. I do not appreciate your rudeness and if my comments and criticisms are not appreciated, it is fine by me to ignore every card ideas you post from now on.

Offline Cheesy111

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1517
  • Reputation Power: 19
  • Cheesy111 is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.Cheesy111 is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.Cheesy111 is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.
  • New to Elements
  • Awards: Battle League 2/2014 1st PlaceWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerSlice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeBattle League 3/2012 2nd PlaceWeekly Tournament WinnerBeginners League 2/2012 2nd Place
Re: Dark Rites | Forbidden Lore https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43734.msg1003637#msg1003637
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2012, 05:49:38 am »
Spoiler for Hidden:
Good to see your response. It shows me that you at least put some effort and thinking into this card. I appreciate your defense.

22 :rainbow does not equal 22 :underworld. Random quanta gain is worth less than the same amount of quanta put into a single element. Mana does not equal quanta. MtG and EtG has slight differences on energy gathering. Nova+SoFo is not a good comparison because SoFo is OP, so any synergies with it are also most likely OP.

Darkness has waned? I doubt that, but then again, all you see in competitive PvP are shards. I have never seen mono time, or air decks in upped PvP. Sky blitz and SoFre for air aren't that powerful. Darkness is weak? Hardly, it is one of the strongest mono elements out there.

Comparison to Instosis is irrelevant and pointless. Instosis is a specialized FG OTK killer. Instosis does poorly in PvP due to so much PC, and your argument of its OTK potential is flawwed. (Voodoo doll decks also have the potential to OTK. This is irrelevant to the topic at hand)

Im sorry, saying everything is irrelevant is bad, high school debate tactics. You seem like a smart guy, you owe it to yourself to actually put some thought into things. I made sound and valid statements. Not that this is a debate, its a discussion. You asked for my reasoning and I gave it. If you are unhappy with why or how I made the card, so be it, but dismissing the foundation for it and my comparisons aren't really welcome. If you see a flaw in the card, say so. If you simply dont like it, ok. To come in here and act like you are the final authority on what is and isnty a good comparison is faulted at best. Try again. You may earn my respect yet.

The problem is that your comparisons were irrelevant.  Saying that you made sound and valid statements doesn't make it so.   Instosis is not a viable PvP deck.  Your metagame summary is far out in left field - Sanctuaries, Crusaders, Pharoah, SoR, none of these cards are especially powerful.  Usable, sure, but Light is still a mid-to-low tier element (its lack of PC and CC are slightly made up for by its strong creatures and Miracle) and Time a mid-to-high tier one (RT, Eternity, Sundial, and a great midrange attacker in GotP don't quite push it into top 4).  And even your comparison with Instosis doesn't seem to be a true comparison of the benefits and detriments of each deck, but more of a prop for your argument.  In reality, there are several important factors you neglected to mention - Instosis is incredibly slow while your deck can, without too much of an unlikely draw (going 2nd, 2xRoL, 1xDark Rites, 2xImmolation, 3xObsidian) get out three dragons on the second turn.  And that's not even going into the possibly synergies with SoB.  Even the thematic component seems lacking, because although Fire and Darkness thematically fit together it's usually in the realm of destruction, and the sacrifice of Fire for Darkness doesn't make nearly as much sense.

 

anything
blarg: