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Offline Cool PorygonTopic starter

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Re: Dark Hole | Dark Hole https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54279.msg1132988#msg1132988
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2014, 12:42:48 am »
How does the new effect sound? I may nerf the upped version, but I really think it grasps the grand scheme of Darkness CC. Another idea for it may be making it so You deal 15 to every creature and gain :darkness for every 5 damage dealt. That makes it more of a Dark Hole effect; destroying things for no apparent gain.
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Re: Dark Hole | Dark Hole https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54279.msg1132990#msg1132990
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2014, 12:47:00 am »
On balancing: Even 15 damage is probably too high.  Consider thunderstorm, which is 3 :air for 2 damage AoE.  Rain of Fire is 3 damage AoE for 7 :fire.  Since air has a minor discount, we can even call this equal to about 4-5 cost  :underworld for thunderstorm.  Since Damage of CC scales nonlinearly, you're looking at maybe 5-6 damage, MAXIMUM for a card that costs 15 :underworld.  Maybe you can go 7 damage if it also drains all :darkness quanta on use.  And that doesn't even begin to take into account the price of the healing.
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Offline dawn to dusk

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Re: Dark Hole | Dark Hole https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54279.msg1132991#msg1132991
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2014, 12:47:30 am »
i still dont really like it... its more of a pseudo instakill that will kill all but 3 creatures.

what about: deal 2 damage to every enemy creature. gain 1HP for each damage dealt.
the darkness gain is very similar to dry spell so i dont think it would be a good idea.

Offline Cool PorygonTopic starter

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Re: Dark Hole | Dark Hole https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54279.msg1133004#msg1133004
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2014, 02:36:35 am »
i still dont really like it... its more of a pseudo instakill that will kill all but 3 creatures.

what about: deal 2 damage to every enemy creature. gain 1HP for each damage dealt.
the darkness gain is very similar to dry spell so i dont think it would be a good idea.
This seems most plausible, but then would it be worth the final Darkness Drain?
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Offline OdinVanguard

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Re: Dark Hole | Dark Hole https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54279.msg1133660#msg1133660
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2014, 02:45:07 am »
Hmm... will be interesting one to balance well, but I like its current incarnation.
I would SOOO use this in a voodoo-tal deck!

..P.S. I may have an art idea for you... will add to this post when ready.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 03:00:33 am by OdinVanguard »
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Offline iDaire

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Re: Dark Hole | Dark Hole https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54279.msg1133667#msg1133667
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2014, 05:06:09 am »
Too powerful.
If I had this card, I would use it for breakfast, lunch, dinner, desert, and every other meal I have. You could never have enough food.
I mean the immortal targeting is nice...there aren't many things that can kill an immortal. Burrowed creatures however are a no no.
Elements has a realistic-ness to it. Burrowed creatures are underground. Why would they be influenced by something on the surface?

Offline OdinVanguard

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Re: Dark Hole | Dark Hole https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54279.msg1133669#msg1133669
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2014, 05:09:04 am »
I mean the immortal targeting is nice...there aren't many things that can kill an immortal. Burrowed creatures however are a no no.
Elements has a realistic-ness to it. Burrowed creatures are underground. Why would they be influenced by something on the surface?

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see anything about targeting immortals or burrowed creatures in the OP, card, or notes... Is that still supposed to be a feature of the effect?

I agree that it would be way too powerful then...

I also think 15 damage may be a bit much for a mass CC card, since there are only about 5 or 6 creatures that would survive that.
Also, its much stronger than the cost really warrants, even with the extra pool emptying effect.
At a cost of 15, you have basically a double firestorm worth of card value, which would give a mass CC zap of 6 (using linear scaling).
It should also be noted that mass CC's value is hard to gauge after 6 damage since so few creatures have more than 6 HPs.

The double edge nature does help but if you go much higher than 6 damage any extra utility becomes quite limited, so I think the overall effect could be rolled back a bit.

With all that said, I do really like the overall idea. It needs some toning down power wise, but I like the mechanic and theme a lot.

(I think "Vortex" would have a nicer ring than "Hole", but either way gets the idea across)
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 05:22:57 am by OdinVanguard »
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Offline iDaire

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Re: Dark Hole | Dark Hole https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54279.msg1133672#msg1133672
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2014, 05:24:35 am »
How about you make this a permanent with a three turn delay. Then the effect happens? That would be SOOO MUCH better. Call it a Dark Hole Bomb! Or Unstable Darkness!

Offline OdinVanguard

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Re: Dark Hole | Dark Hole https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54279.msg1133675#msg1133675
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2014, 05:34:28 am »
How about you make this a permanent with a three turn delay. Then the effect happens? That would be SOOO MUCH better. Call it a Dark Hole Bomb! Or Unstable Darkness!
That reminds me of the weapon the aliens used in that old Charlie Sheen movie "The Arrival"


As a point of order on that idea, a fuse is less potent as a balancing mechanism for :darkness cards because they can conceal it very easily with cloak. Same goes for earth because of protect artifact... It will help, but I don't think its enough of a remedy in this case.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 05:36:53 am by OdinVanguard »
Whether the glass is half full or half empty is a moot point. It is always filled to the brim. It is only a matter of by what. The real question is: What fills you?
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kill -9 `ps l | awk '{print $2" "$3" "$9}' | grep "Z" | awk '{printf("%s ",$2)}'`
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Re: Dark Hole | Dark Hole https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54279.msg1133724#msg1133724
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2014, 06:05:59 pm »
You could argue those two cards for any permanents. I could protect/hide any unstable gas. Also I was thinking of a sort of space bomb when also mentioning the bombs idea. =P

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« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 06:08:43 pm by deathreign3 »

Offline Cool PorygonTopic starter

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Re: Dark Hole | Dark Hole https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54279.msg1133756#msg1133756
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2014, 09:35:58 pm »
I have taken into consideration all of your posts, and Odin, I'm still debating whether or not to use your art, but I didn't alter the effect of draining HP because it really does take on the whole Darkness Vampire feel, but I did nuke the damage dealt quite a bit. I'm now contemplating making an :aether Immortal killer card, because in legends, even immortals can be killed.
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Offline OdinVanguard

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Re: Dark Hole | Dark Hole https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54279.msg1133890#msg1133890
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2014, 08:47:17 pm »
I have taken into consideration all of your posts, and Odin, I'm still debating whether or not to use your art, but I didn't alter the effect of draining HP because it really does take on the whole Darkness Vampire feel, but I did nuke the damage dealt quite a bit. I'm now contemplating making an :aether Immortal killer card, because in legends, even immortals can be killed.
The vamp drain is okay. And, I definitely agree that it works well thematically and makes this card unique since there is no mass drain effect available yet. I was mainly concerned that the the damage was too high.
Dealing 8 is much better than 15. Its still very high, but at least some things will be able to survive after being buffed.
I think the unupped one should probably deal slightly lower damage (maybe 7 or 6?) in this case since creatures are generally weaker and there will be fewer buffs to help things survive in the unupgraded meta.

As for upgraded creatures. This is a tricky topic. Generally speaking, bypassing immaterial is something of a taboo. The status needs to be respected in terms of the value it adds to a card.

More specifically, all immaterial creatures have been balance wrt cost to account for their high level of protection. This additional cost needs to be respected when considering the balance of a card that can bypass the status.
For example: SoW bypasses immaterial status and the benefit to doing so is that it adds an additional effect.
Likewise if a negative effect bypasses immaterial status, there should be some kind of penalty for doing so.

You have some options there, although space is limited. Some examples:
-Do less damage to immaterial creatures (they tend to be low HP naturally)
-Remove or invert the drain for immaterial targets
-Give the owner of the immaterial target something in exchange...(e.g. return dead card to hand, give new cards, more hps ... etc.)
Whether the glass is half full or half empty is a moot point. It is always filled to the brim. It is only a matter of by what. The real question is: What fills you?
If your zombie plan is
kill -9 `ps l | awk '{print $2" "$3" "$9}' | grep "Z" | awk '{printf("%s ",$2)}'`
You might be a unix junky

 

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