champions series, help very welcome!

[rohlfo]

hi everyone,
I've had a series idea for which I can see will need quite a bit of help/team effort if it's ever going to happen, let me try and outline my ideas etc.:

basic outline:
- I wanted to create a series of big animals (1 for each element) which all cost the same and have same attack/HP.
- I wanted them to have a trigger function which basically is setting off a spell (typical of their element) when played, otherwise plain creature. (to clarify, the spell happens only once, when playing out the creature, not each turn!)
- upgraded could have (in addition!) a more passive function like momentum, or generally a more minor feature/spell of specific element.

 Let me give you a really rough example: creature, gravity, is 8/8, costs 12, when it gets played it triggers black hole spell. Upgraded version also has momentum

Many, many questions/things to decide:

First off, general things:
- what should they be called? Called them champions for now, but open to suggestions.
- how much attack/hp? and therefore cost?
- should it be exclusive, as in only 1/2/n per deck rather than 6?
- I like the idea that they are immune to spells from own element, good idea?
- only allowed to have champion of an element in your deck if your mark is that element?

secondly, each element and it's trigger function/upgraded ability, need help deciding if ok/filling out missing pieces:
NOTE: I'm trying to choose the trigger spell to be of cost 4(ish) if played as a spell card (eg. black hole). The upgraded ability should cost more like 2ish (eg. momentum)

   trigger function: pandemonium. upgraded could do upgraded pandemonium.

  trigger function: plague. upgraded also inflicts 2 poison to opponent.

  trigger function: black hole. upgraded has momentum.

  trigger function:earthquake, but up to 4 pillars. Upgraded could burrow?

trigger function: heals you for 25HP. passive function could be heals you for 2HP each turn, as long as creature still alive? OR also brings it's pet along, horned frog!

  trigger function: firebolts opponent when played. upgraded version also destroys opponents shield when played (even immaterial, just burns right through!?)

  trigger function: add 4(?) purify counters? upgraded is immune to any poison effect?

  trigger function: tricky one again, thinking blinds enemy creatures, so decreases their attack for one turn, by 3ish? OR bless an allied creature. upgraded also causes luciferin spell.
 
trigger function: first attack is a 'dive'. upgraded, all allied creatures are 'airbourne'? OR shockwave random apponent creatue/ or thunderstorm

  trigger function: draw 2 cards. no idea what to give upgraded version atm, draw 3 cards and stasis? reverse time random opponent?

  trigger function: cloak. upgraded all darkness creatures get +1/+1?

  trigger function: silence. upgraded is immaterial (too strong, so maybe lightning opponent/random opponent creature?)
 
("what's this!? we don't like rainbow creatures here!") I know, this is just a maybe. Basically trigger function would be to cause 1/2/n 'rainbows' *cough*nova*cough*, upgraded would be same just 1 or 2 more novas. I know novas are entropy, but they are one thing which combines all elements equally, hence chosen for rainbow creature. (if disliked by enough people, this trigger function could be given to the entropy creature).




Thanks for reading! As mentioned I'm happy to have this done as team effort, so say if you want to join in. Layout just now is rubbish, sorry, I know it'd look more impressive as cards with pictures etc, but not enough finalised to really do that. That will get better once more final decisions are made. Let me know if anything is unclear, otherwise very looking forward to feedback and ideas!!!

[EmeraldTiger]

Give us time to think and the Communal Card Creation Team will help you.

I have a idea for you. I will post it later. i have to get an image, work it, then post it for you.
it is for  . here is the image i am going to modify.

[OldTrees]

First off, general things:
- what should they be called? Called them champions for now, but open to suggestions.
This depends on the creatures involved. Champions, Behemoths, Colossus
- how much attack/hp? and therefore cost?
Some minority of the community believes that no creature should rival the dragons in stats and eclipse them in effect even with a price increase. As such I would recommend balancing them around 7|7 but with as much variety in stats as the dragons. (Note:7|7 is worth 8 quanta cost see thread in Design theory for details)
- should it be exclusive, as in only 1/2/n per deck rather than 6?
No. Limitations like rarity are poor tools for balance.
- I like the idea that they are immune to spells from own element, good idea?
Probably not. The community likes simple cards. Adding too many effects is not wise.
- only allowed to have champion of an element in your deck if your mark is that element?
Again, overly complex but it is a neat idea. My suggestion is not to limit them like this while balancing them but to make the suggestion that this is an optional addition to the suggestion to Zanz. Let Zanz make up his own mind.

I would recommend each Stats value (8-6) + Spell cost (2-4) equal around 10 quanta. The upgrade should be a simple 1-2 decrease in cost.


   trigger function: one of the toughest ones to choose things for. At the moment my only thought is that you get some of or all the quantum back when played (depending on what final cost will be). Upgraded version's passive spell, again difficult, so far only thought of dead/alive.
Random effect of: ___, ___, ... , random target(s). Fill out details.
  trigger function: plague. upgraded also inflicts 2 poison to opponent.
Works.
  trigger function: black hole. upgraded has momentum.
I would drop the momentum and just decrease cost by 1-2 as the upgrade.
  trigger function: 3 damage to all opponents non-flying creatures (earthquake type thing). Upgraded could burrow?
I would drop the burrow and just decrease cost by 1-2 as the upgrade.
trigger function: heals you for 25HP. passive function could be heals you for 2HP each turn, as long as creature still alive?
Both have been suggested before. A new idea for life will be difficult.
  trigger function: firebolts opponent when played. upgraded version also destroys opponents shield when played (even immaterial, just burns right through!?)
I would drop the Deflagration and just decrease cost by 1-2 as the upgrade.
  trigger function: drowns/kills all opponent creatures in top and bottom row? upgraded is immune to poison effect?
I would use purify counters as the Water spell effect and just decrease ...
  trigger function: tricky one again, thinking blinds enemy creatures, so decreases their attack for one turn, by 3ish? upgraded also causes luciferin spell.
 Same comment about upgrade as before.
trigger function: first attack is a 'dive'. upgraded, all allied creatures are 'airbourne'?
Same comment about upgrade as before.
  trigger function: draw 2 cards? no idea what to give upgraded version atm
Works. Same comment about upgrade as before.
  trigger function: cloak. upgraded all darkness creatures get +1/+1?
Works. Same comment about upgrade as before.
  trigger function: silence. upgraded is immaterial
 Works. Same comment about upgrade as before.
("what's this!? we don't like rainbow creatures here!") I know, this is just a maybe. Basically trigger function would be to cause 1/2/n 'rainbows' *cough*nova*cough*, upgraded would be same just 1 or 2 more novas. I know novas are entropy, but they are one thing which combines all elements equally, hence chosen for rainbow creature. (if disliked by enough people, this trigger function could be given to the entropy creature).
I wouldn't create an other Champion. Other cards get hard to balance at high value/casting costs



Thanks for reading! As mentioned I'm happy to have this done as team effort, so say if you want to join in. Layout just now is rubbish, sorry, I know it'd look more impressive as cards with pictures etc, but not enough finalised to really do that. That will get better once more final decisions are made. Let me know if anything is unclear, otherwise very looking forward to feedback and ideas!!!

@Emerald Tiger
The CCC is a group about targeted card creation. The members were selected because they also are involved in the critiquing of other ideas but that is not the role of the CCC. Also the goal comes before the idea with the CCC. However I would be surprised if the members of the CCC did not individually decide to comment here.

[rohlfo]

First off, general things:
- what should they be called? Called them champions for now, but open to suggestions.
This depends on the creatures involved. Champions, Behemoths, Colossus
- how much attack/hp? and therefore cost?
Some minority of the community believes that no creature should rival the dragons in stats and eclipse them in effect even with a price increase. As such I would recommend balancing them around 7|7 but with as much variety in stats as the dragons. (Note:7|7 is worth 8 quanta cost see thread in Design theory for details)
- should it be exclusive, as in only 1/2/n per deck rather than 6?
No. Limitations like rarity are poor tools for balance.
- I like the idea that they are immune to spells from own element, good idea?
Probably not. The community likes simple cards. Adding too many effects is not wise.
- only allowed to have champion of an element in your deck if your mark is that element?
Again, overly complex but it is a neat idea. My suggestion is not to limit them like this while balancing them but to make the suggestion that this is an optional addition to the suggestion to Zanz. Let Zanz make up his own mind.

I would recommend each Stats value (8-6) + Spell cost (2-4) equal around 10 quanta. The upgrade should be a simple 1-2 decrease in cost.

not sure colossus quite captures the spell part of creature, which behemoth does more. but should they be like "champion/behemoth/colossus of life/earth/fire/..." or too boring and each should have their own distinct name?

I was unsure how the reaction would be of something getting close to dragon strength. Perhaps have them all 6|6 with spell to cost 10.
I know each element likes slightly different stats, more attack and less health for fire etc, but kinda wanted that bit to be same across the board and the trigger effect to be the unique and element specific bit. perhaps small adjustments would be ok so as not to make balancing/costing harder as I want them all to have same cost.

as to complex ideas, they were just all ideas in the making progress I felt I should share. I agree none should really feature as it makes it too complex.

I know just making the upgrade cost less (or give better stats) is typical, just kinda wanted to give it another edge :s
Perhaps the upgraded ideas could be for lesser champions/behemoths, or perhaps even, they could be the unupped creature, and when upped, the spell changes to a more powerful one? I'm not sure...just throwing it out there.

Also, in general thanks for thoughts/ideas/input and intrigued by panda!

forgot to say, like the purify spell idea for water. Also, as to life, would it not be ok for me to use that idea if it's been thought of before? I wasn't aware of it, but tbh would like that to be the trigger effect as it makes so much sense for element 'life'. At the end of the day I'm mainly using spells already in existence.

[rohlfo]

oh my god, I'm sooooooooooooooooo slow. Let me guess, entropy should be pandemonium, 'panda', gettit! lol.

so with that for entropy and water giving 3(ish?) purify counters for spell, that makes all the spells more or less chosen and just fine tuning needed?

as to upgraded version, do people want a poll to decide? Options being:
- secondary minor effect, worth 1-2 if it was a spell.
- same attack/hp, just cheaper by 1-2.
- same cost, but +1/+1.
- think of something else/posted my idea in thread.

if people think that would help I'll create poll.

Big thanks again for feedback, and any more always welcome 

[EmeraldTiger]

Here is what i came up with and before you ask. yes it is chewing on Discord.

[StudioSeraphim]

Hmm. In terms of names, what about calling the creatures 'Avatars'? Seeing as there's one for each type, and the key point is that their effects are representative of their own element, it would make sense. And (personal preference, this - feel free to disagree) I wouldn't just name them '_____ of Fire/Life/Water' etc. I still get an irrational little pang of rage whenever I see an upped card with the same name as its predecessor, or just with the word 'Elite' tacked on.

Perhaps naming the Avatars/Champions/Behemoths after gemstones representative of the elements' colours might be considered - I know several of the dragons have already used this idea, but I still think it could be kept separate by using different gem names. For example:

  Opal Avatar/ Opalescent Avatar
  Amethyst Avatar
  Topaz Avatar

And so on. I dunno, I'm just spitballing here. What d'you reckon?

[karis]

Here is what i came up with and before you ask. yes it is chewing on Discord.

cast pandemonium when come in to play  and it said 'i bring pandamonium!'?   

[rohlfo]

First off, that panda is epic lol! made my day haha!

I still get an irrational little pang of rage whenever I see an upped card with the same name as its predecessor, or just with the word 'Elite' tacked on.

I'm the same. I do want these cards to be different in various ways, but also very similar so as to embed the series idea. Perhaps unupped could be opal champion/behemoth, and upgrade opal avatar? That's if going with gemstone idea. I'll try give it some more thought and will probably add that poll about upgrades now, along with one for names perhaps, so please vote! Once enough votes are in I'll start trying to make proper card pictures, using pandas, and other soft cuddly animals :s

thanks again for input guys, much appreciated!

[Werdbooty]

Name idea: Legendary creatures...perhaps something to this effect? Medusa, Kraken, Sphinx, Cyclops, Roc...that sort of thing. Of course, it might be a bit too generic. If you're looking to more or less solidify the theme, perhaps the unupped versions could be "Beasts" and the upped versions could be "Behemoths" or This would allow you to retain the gemstone idea. I also batted around the idea of gem golems, but that might tear away from the big animal idea.

If you'd like to get away from the gemstone idea, perhaps using other material that's a bit more "organic," to fit with the theme? For example:

  - Bone Beast | Bone Behemoth
  - Granite Beast | Granite Behemoth
  - Clockwork Beast | Clockwork Behemoth
  - Shadow Beast | Shadow Behemoth
  - Feather Beast | Feather Behemoth
  - Moss Beast | Moss Behemoth


...just something to think about.

[StudioSeraphim]

Perhaps unupped could be opal champion/behemoth, and upgrade opal avatar? That's if going with gemstone idea.

Yeah, I think that would work well. The initial stage would come across as more of an organic beast, and the upgrade, while still a creature, would sound more like a [more powerful] physical manifestation of the element itself.

[EmeraldTiger]

Give the unupped a generic name give the upped a Proper name. I would name the panda, Monet Hem.

edit: Also if you use the panda, and if you have it cast pandemonium it needs a minimum HP of 6.